Cloggy 2 Burke whistles. Warning: Controversy

Post by **Dale** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:37 pm

Peter Laban wrote:Isn't great for all yer WHOA guys? You buy a very expensive whistle and after seven years and a day it self-destructs so you can buy a new one.

I don't have a problem with this thread. Weeks has gone to great lengths to carefully describe the problem. But, Peter, this is a cheap shot on your part. You're way out ahead of the evidence here.

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:58 pm

Dale wrote:From time-to-time, I've heard from people who describe a gradual deterioration in the playability of whistles of various makes, but not in a way that's allowed me to detect any pattern. I've got a number of Burkes from this era, but haven't had the problem.

In fairness to Mike, we need to avoid letting this be a post-your-complaint-here thread. If you've had similar experiences, fair enough to post...but please also post if you haven't. Normally, anybody who HAS had a problem is likely to post in this kind of thread and people who HAVEN'T are more likely just to move on without comment.

I also play several Burkes from this era. No problems here.

I've also had a lot of pre-owned Burkes come through my hands. They consistently perform beautifully (sometimes after cleaning).

I'm not disputing Weeks' problem...obviously something going on there. Just chiming in on the positive side of some really remarkable instruments made by a fine fellow.

Doc

rh · Post by rh » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:03 pm

Dale wrote: In fairness to Mike, we need to avoid letting this be a post-your-complaint-here thread. If you've had similar experiences, fair enough to post...but please also post if you haven't. Normally, anybody who HAS had a problem is likely to post in this kind of thread and people who HAVEN'T are more likely just to move on without comment.

I have three Burkes; one (DAN) i bought in 2004, and the other two (a black-tip brass C and an older WBB D) acquired through transactions on C&F. I play them fairly regularly and have never had a clogging or sound problem with either of the black tips. I do get clogging with the WBB which is similar to the Copeland i have -- which i always attributed to the windway design and/or the brass/delrin combination, as Mike changed both for the blacktips and they've never been a problem for me.

I do find Dr F's O-ring theory to be plausible -- after all, they are IIRC made from rubber and are likely to degrade over time... more quickly than delrin, it would seem to me.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:12 pm

The Weekenders wrote:
Dr Funkenstein wrote:Out of curiousity, did Mike replace the o-rings in the tuning slide when you sent it back? The way you're describing the tone as "fuzzy" and unpredictable reminds me of leakage issues on a flute, which would either result from a crack or a leak of some sort. I wonder if after a few years of playing and tuning, there's a leak at the slide due to a torn o-ring? Or maybe the tuning slide or socket is out of round? That could explain the late development and also why treating the windway doesn't stop the clogging.

--Jeff

I don't know about the o-ring. To be honest with you, I don't know how to tell if the o-ring is worn out and further, how I would get in there to replace it without scratching up the side walls if I did.

Testing the O ring in the tuning slide can be done this way. Put masking tape over the six tone holes and the fipple window. Put tape over the end or use your hand. Put water or water with a little dish washing soap in it around the tuning slide joint. Then with the holes and fipple window closed with tape, and tape or your hand over the end blow into the mouthpiece. If you see bubbles coming from around the tuning slide joint, there is a leak there. it only takes a very small leak to make a whistle play poorly.

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:20 pm

I have an older DAS that I bought used a few months ago. It's never had a problem. The O-ring theory makes sense to me also. These are great whistles, and I'd like a brass C at some point.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:32 pm

I also have three Burkes, the WBB D I was talking about earlier in the thread, an AlPro D which I bought used, and a DAN that my wife bought from Mike himself for a Christmas present for me.

The only Burke that's ever given me a bit of trouble is the WBB which I bought in an Ebay auction...and since I did the waxed dental floss thing, it's fine.

The other two are consistently fine, dependable whistles. And the tone of the D narrow bore brass is just outstanding...this whistle's tone does for music what melted butter does for popcorn.

The AlPro has been dropped on a concrete floor a couple of times, and it's my general bang-around workhorse whistle. It still plays beautifully.

In my experience, Mike Burke makes some very fine, dependable, and durable whistles.

--James

cowtime · Post by **cowtime** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:40 pm

I just checked and I got my Brass Pro Sessions in May of 2002. It's got the brass top on the mouthpiece with black below. I've never had a clog in the thing, ever. Oh, and I haven't bought another whistle since I got it(and all without a 12 step program too!)

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:18 pm

Tommy wrote:[Testing the O ring in the tuning slide can be done this way. Put masking tape over the six tone holes and the fipple window. Put tape over the end or use your hand. Put water or water with a little dish washing soap in it around the tuning slide joint. Then with the holes and fipple window closed with tape, and tape or your hand over the end blow into the mouthpiece. If you see bubbles coming from around the tuning slide joint, there is a leak there. it only takes a very small leak to make a whistle play poorly.

I'll try it! Thanks!

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:36 am

Dale wrote: I don't have a problem with this thread. Weeks has gone to great lengths to carefully describe the problem. But, Peter, this is a cheap shot on your part. You're way out ahead of the evidence here.

Ofcourse it was a cheap shot and so cheap it should have been obvious to anyone how tongue in cheek it was. And I don't think anyone except yourself took this serious for even a second. So come on, lighten up a bit there Dale.

Post by **Dale** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:17 am

Peter Laban wrote:
Dale wrote: I don't have a problem with this thread. Weeks has gone to great lengths to carefully describe the problem. But, Peter, this is a cheap shot on your part. You're way out ahead of the evidence here.
Ofcourse it was a cheap shot and so cheap it should have been obvious to anyone how tongue in cheek it was. And I don't think anyone except yourself took this serious for even a second. So come on, lighten up a bit there Dale.

I decline to lighten up and, in this case, I'm not really buying the I-was-just-kidding thing. I've already said that I think Weeks' post was entirely legit and worthwhile for this board. But, the need for fairness is not trivial here. A lot of whistlemakers, including Mike Burke, invest a lot of time and money in their businesses and so this discussion is pretty darn serious to those guys, I would think, and they have something to lose in all of this.

In this case, you've got a track record of commentary so that readers know where you're coming from on the expensive whistle issue, so you and I are both right in characterizing this as a cheap shot, "tongue in cheek" or not.

dfernandez77 · Post by **dfernandez77** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:26 am

harpmaker wrote:Normal body fluids shouldn't have any effect on the surface though.

"Normal body fluids?"
We're talking about weeks here...

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:32 am

Dale wrote: I decline to lighten up and, in this case, I'm not really buying the I-was-just-kidding thing. I've already said that I think Weeks' post was entirely legit and worthwhile for this board. But, the need for fairness is not trivial here. A lot of whistlemakers, including Mike Burke, invest a lot of time and money in their businesses and so this discussion is pretty darn serious to those guys, I would think, and they have something to lose in all of this.

In this case, you've got a track record of commentary so that readers know where you're coming from on the expensive whistle issue, so you and I are both right in characterizing this as a cheap shot, "tongue in cheek" or not.

So taking the mickey is not OK? Most of the post pulled a bit a the board members' pre-occupations with whistle buying. Where's the harm in that? I see 'crap' 'awful' and the like used as description for other mass produced whistles all the time with out moderator interference and I never went even near anything like that sort of comment. The only comment that could apply to Burke whistles was they are very expensive, which I think is the case.

Key_of_D · Post by **Key_of_D** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:35 am

beware of taking the mickey out of something...........................

MTGuru · Post by **MTGuru** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:21 am

A few months ago I had occasion to lend my Burke DAS whistle to piper Marion McCarthy during a session, and had a hard time prying it from her hands after, while her own brass Generation lay idle. Her comment was something to the effect that it was the loveliest whistle she had ever played and she'd love to have one. Tommy Keane, who was also there, had a similar reaction. My impression is that they've always played Generations or Susatos, weren't really aware of Burkes, and didn't quite realize that a high end whistle could be such a pleasure. I'm just reporting, don't you know.

My Burke is about one year old, and nary a problem. It's my workhorse D, and the sweetest whistle in my stable. An occasional Duponol treatment keeps it clog free.

I wonder if the bore itself could be involved? If the inner surface has corroded a bit over time, perhaps it has developed spots that attract beads of moisture along the bore that would have just dripped down and out when the instrument was newer. And I've found that moisture in the bore can be every bit as clogging as in the windway. And if you're like me, we don't swab the whistle dry after playing as often as we should. This situation seems to fit your description in that the problem gets worse as you play, and no amount of fiddling with the windway helps.

Do you know if Mike Burke's cleaning involved resurfacing the bore? I seem to recall that an occasional pass of a gentle abrasive pad like Scotch Brite through the bore is sometimes recommended to remove irregularities. What happens if you shake out or swab out the whole instrument instead of just clearing the windway when the problem starts? Does that help? Curious minds are curious.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:50 am

I think both Tommy and Marion are well aware of what whistles are out there. I saw Marion play a Burke B last summer (well before they left for the tionols) and both have played my Sindt years ago. In fact I was playing with Marion and the sisters the weekend before she left for LA and whistles were discussed briefly that night.
I have discussed whistles with Marion and Brid O Donohue on other occasions and the Burkes would have come up in these discussions. I have memories of whistles being passed around during these nights in Friel's. I would also think Tommy had a look at Mick O Brien's trade specimens. Whether the nights and the whistles in question made a lasting impression is another matter.

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