Whistles in different keys, the how, the the why and the Oh, my goodness! What in the world?

[mor.whistle]

I have been trying to understand this thing ever since I started playing the whistle and I'm really frustrated by my inability to understand the whole concept, especially after all the material I've read here and elsewhere. Maybe, hopefully, one day I'll think about this and laugh, but right now I feel really lost and confused.

Another small premise before explaining my problem: I am a complete music illiterate, I can safely say that all I know (which is really a little) I've learned in the last few months while I've started to play the whistle. Thus if any of you undertakes the task of explaining to me things, keep in mind that nothing is to be given for granted, I might not even know what a note is.
Moreover my words can and most likely will be inaccurate in explaining, bear with me.

So, here is my confused mind.

When I started playing I came to understand that whistles existed in several keys, some less common, but nevertheless existing.
This allows for whistle to span their scales from higher or lower starting points. So far, everything is clear, but then I learned that switching whistles in different keys does not require to change the fingering in order to play the same tunes.

This thing immediately confused me because in my ignorance I could imagine instruments to play in a different ranges of the whole spectrum of notes, but I would have expected that a tune that starts -say- with G-E-A in a D whistle (which is xxxooo-xxxxxo-xxoooo as you know), would start as xxoooo-xxxxoo-xooooo in a C whistle in order to play the same notes otherwise it would play F-D-G.
Plus, the F and C are sharp on a D whistle while I understand that a C whistle has no sharps or flats (usually) which in my head makes the thing even more complicated since a F# on a D whistle, played as xxxxoo is a E natural on a C whistle.

I am having troubles at explaining myself to the point that I hope someone already figured where my confusion lies in. I hope that from the words of those who'll chip in I will figure how to further clarify the whole concept.

Thanks in advance to all those who will take the the time to intervene, and please don't hurry because I might be unable to reply in a timely fashion.

Ciao

[Peter Duggan]

but I would have expected that a tune that starts -say- with G-E-A in a D whistle (which is xxxooo-xxxxxo-xxoooo as you know), would start as xxoooo-xxxxoo-xooooo in a C whistle in order to play the same notes

Yes, that's right if you're wanting to play literally the same notes.

otherwise it would play F-D-G.

And that's right if you're wanting to play the same relative intervals (aka melody) in the new key brought by the change of whistle.

Plus, the F and C are sharp on a D whistle while I understand that a C whistle has no sharps or flats (usually) which in my head makes the thing even more complicated since a F# on a D whistle, played as xxxxoo is a E natural on a C whistle.

Absolutely correct again, because the hole-by-hole D major scale (D E F# G A B C#) of your D whistle has the same relative intervals as the hole-by-hole C major scale (C D E F G A B) of your C whistle. Which gives you the choice of treating your other whistles as transposing instruments (ie sounding notes different to what you call them, but with the same pitch relationships to one another) or using new names for familiar notes and fingerings. And the first (transposing instrument approach) is what most folk do most of the time, although the second (giving the notes their true sounding names) can be useful for the more expert and is probably also done subconsciously by others when simply playing by ear.

[mor.whistle]

Thanks Peter for your input, help me again if I'm wrong.

From these words:

... because the hole-by-hole D major scale (D E F# G A B C#) of your D whistle has the same relative intervals as the hole-by-hole C major scale (C D E F G A B) of your C whistle

and also

... ie sounding notes different to what you call them, but with the same pitch relationships to one another...

... I understand that, fundamentally, music isn't really the notes, rather the relation between notes.

So far, when I looked at a music sheet I saw notes placed on staves and I intended a dot on the middle line to be a B (or a Si in Italian). From there the next step in my mind is to think that a tune (or song, whatever) that has a B in it, is intended to be played with that B and not a nearby A, even provided that all other notes are transposed accordingly.
In my musical naiveness I found natural and understandable that a certain tune could be played as well in higher or lower scales, like playing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" on the extreme right or left of a piano keyboard, but I always thought that a B must be a B, a F must be a F and C# must be a C# regardless of how high or low they are played.

But if sliding a tune over the notes by a step that is different from seven or a multiple of seven is possible, why do we have specific notes in the first place?
Shouldn't we just talk about, as you well phrased, intervals between notes?

Maybe that's where my confusion is, thinking that notes are like letters of words that cannot be changed or altered without compromising the correctness of the words and maybe even the whole meaning of the phrase.
Or maybe notes are more like broad concepts or guidelines that can be applied to different context.

But then again, what's the correct way? There is one or all is acceptable?

To be clearer:

Yes, that's right if you're wanting to play literally the same notes.

Should I play literally the same notes? Is this the correct way to play a music that on the sheet starts with B and not with A?

And that's right if you're wanting to play the same relative intervals (aka melody) in the new key brought by the change of whistle.

Is it fine to do so or is it a sort of "approximation", looked down at from musicians because notes are indeed like letters of words?

Is there something I'm missing?

Thank you for your help.

[Peter Duggan]

... I understand that, fundamentally, music isn't really the notes, rather the relation between notes.

In a broad sense, yes, although sometimes original key does still matter.

Should I play literally the same notes? Is this the correct way to play a music that on the sheet starts with B and not with A?

It depends on the music. If it's, say, Beethoven's Waldstein sonata being played on the piano and billed as such, then you should. But, if you want to arrange the Waldstein for something else and present that as your arrangement of it, then, no, you don't have to, and there are even many such examples of composers reusing their own work in new keys and contexts. If it's Romantic lieder (art song) it's considered acceptable to transpose for the range of the voice even though that also affects the all-important piano part, but I still personally tend to prefer original-key performances recognising that (for instance) the composer was often writing for that particular vocal range and (especially) not messing with carefully thought-out key relationships between songs from a continuous cycle. But then again, it's not normal to transpose in opera, where you're expected to have the voice and range for the part.

Now, to apply some of this thinking to the different contexts of trad. music, nursery rhymes and so on, most session tunes etc. have a standard key (some have several and there are many, for example, that you might find in G or A), but you'd always tend to pick the most suitable key for a singer. It's not 'wrong' to pick up a different whistle and rattle off a 'standard' tune in a different key, but it's not normally going to work like that in a standard session context (with obvious exceptions like 'Eb sessions' etc.). So, yes, music is in some ways 'the relation between notes' and you shouldn't be afraid to try anything you like along these lines for your own (and maybe also others') satisfaction.

Hope that helps when it's both simple and complicated at the same time, but looks like you're getting there because you're asking the right questions!

[NicoMoreno]

What Peter said!

But also, it's worth pointing out that for irish traditional music (and I think Scottish and others as well, but I don't play those) sheet music is not the starting point. Sheet music is (and was) used to capture what musicians were already doing. In many places in Ireland, A=440 was not at all a standard, so you'd have the same tune flat or sharp. Flat pitch pipes, 3/4 flutes, whistles in whatever available key, and fiddles that could easily be tuned up or down all meant that the absolute pitch wasn't really important, but rather the relationship between the notes of a tune. You could say that in all these cases the fingering is the same, but the absolute pitch changes. In addition to that, musicians have always played around with playing the tune in different fingerings on the same instrument. Shifting up or down a tone, up or down a fifth or fourth (can be easy for some tunes on whistle, flute and pipes, and is way easier on fiddle), and changing octaves (a feature of duet playing in Sliabh Luachra) are all things that have been done regularly by musicians.

The melody as a whole is still the melody shifted up or down[*], by whatever means.

[*]There is another element to be thought of: the relationship of the melody to the instrument. The same tune in G on a D whistle will sound different than the same tune in A on a D whistle, and the second will be different to that tune in "G" fingering on an E whistle (which comes out in the same "A" as on the D whistle). A tune in Gm will sound different than in Am on a fiddle, and it will sound different again if the fiddle is tuned down a step and played with the same Am fingering. I think the uilleann pipes have it the most pronounced, but flute, whistle, and fiddle all share this feature. The physical attributes of the instrument have an effect on how each individual note sounds. This is why I enjoy playing Gm tunes on a D chanter, rather than picking up a C chanter and playing it with "Am" fingering.

[david_h]

I vaguely remember working out some of this by experimentation when I was starting.

If you can play 'Amazing Grace' starting on the bottom note of your whistle try starting it on the second note and then starting on the fifth note (XXO OOOO). Its the same tune isn't it ? If you have a D whistle and a C whistle compare starting on the bottom note on the D whistle with the second note on the C whistle. (this only works for tunes that miss out some notes of the scale).

If you are using notation try writing those down and think about the advantages or otherwise of writing what you do on the D whistle differently from what you do for the C whistle.

This is dabbling with some of the stuff Nico was talking about.

[pancelticpiper]

Traditional Irish players would learn a particular tune (by ear) in a certain spot on the whistle so that they can play along with other players, and not really be concerned about what "key" a music-theory person would classify the tune in.

Say a guy learned a jig that started

GAB BAG

when played on a D whistle.

When this guy picked up an Eb whistle or a C whistle or a Bb whistle he would play the tune fingering it exactly as he did on the D whistle, and most likely be unconcerned or even unaware that all the notes coming out of his whistle now, technically, have different names. In fact he would most likely name the notes just as he would on his D whistle, though of course the actual "sounding pitches" are completely different when he's playing a whistle other than a D whistle.

So that tune that starts GAB BAG on his D whistle would in reality start FGA AGF on a C whistle and EbFG GFEb on a Bb whistle but a traditional player wouldn't care about that. He's just playing the tune exactly the way he learned in on a D whistle, but on a different whistle.

So, a tune that comes out in the key of G on a D whistle would come out in the key of F on a C whistle and the key of Eb on a Bb whistle... in each case the tune is in the scale starting on the 4th note of the whistle. But traditional players aren't thinking in terms of transposing the tune to different keys, just that they happen to have picked up a different whistle.

[killthemessenger]

I am a complete music illiterate

[Tor]

In my musical naiveness I found natural and understandable that a certain tune could be played as well in higher or lower scales, like playing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" on the extreme right or left of a piano keyboard, but I always thought that a B must be a B, a F must be a F and C# must be a C# regardless of how high or low they are played.

That would be transposing in octave steps only, e.g C1 -> C2, or D1 -> D2 (one octave up). But you can always transpose any key to any key, so if you transpose from they key of C to the key of G then instead of playing the original melody as (for "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star") C C G G A A G you will now play the melody as G G D D E E D.

Or, played in the key of D (as moving from a C whistle to a D whistle) you would be playing it as D D A A B B A. What's common is that in all those keys the sequence for this melody is the root note (the note with the same name as the key), then 7 half-tones up, then 2 half-tones up, then 2 half-tones down. So the intervals are always the same, as you noted.

On a guitar (or any fretted string instrument) you can count those half-tones on a single string, there's one half-tone per fret.
So, start on any string, then pick the open (non-fretted) string twice, then pick the 7th fret twice, then the 9th fret twice, then the 7th fret once. You're playing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star in the key of whatever string you started on (for a guitar that would be any of E, A, D, G, B, or (high) E).

If you watch a guitar player they will sometimes use a capo to transpose the song they're playing. Let's say the guitarist knows how to play the song in C, with chords in the key of C (e.g. C chord, F chord, G chord). Then somebody tells the guitarist that it's difficult to sing this song in that key, could it possibly be played a few half-tones higher. Say, 3 half-tones. The guitarist could then either change to a different set of chords which will fit that new key, or, instead, put a capo at the 3rd fret and use the "same" chords, i.e. play the C-shape, F-shape, G-shape chords. Technically that would really be a D# chord, a G# chord, a A# chord. But the guitarist (due to the capo) can simply use the same fingerings as if it were played in the key of C. You do the same thing if you play a song on a C whistle, then play it on a D whistle with exactly the same fingering: You're transposing the song by one full tone (two half-tones).

As for reasons of playing in different keys, there are several, some of which are (and also mentioned by the other posters):

- Some keys are easier to sing than others. I watched a film about Paul McCartney the other day, backstage he was talking to Eric Clapton where he (McCartney) mentioned that he had written a new song specifically for this concert. He had written it in the key of G because it would then be easy for the audience to sing along to, he said something like "in the key of G it sings itself". Which is true, a song in the key of G falls easily in the vocal range of us normal folks.

- Some instruments are limited to the notes available for the instrument. A "D" whistle can only play what it's designed for. When I played in a brass band as a kid my Eb instrument could only play notes available to the instrument, the only key I could play all the notes of would be just Eb [not entirely true but for this discussion it'll suffice]. So the marches etc. would have to be transposed to Eb or something matching. What's interesting in this context is that all the sheet music I got handed was written as if my instrument was in the key of C.. never in Eb. So I would play the 'C', 'D', 'E' notes on the sheet music, but technically (as measured by a tuner) I was really playing 'Eb', 'F', 'G'.

- It follows from the above that if you were to play together with someone playing an instrument like the one I played in the brass band you may have to pick a whistle in a particular key so that you may be able to play along with that instrument. You're not always limited to only that exact same key, because there are overlaps. In the previous paragraph you'll note that F and G are part of the key of Eb, so a C whistle (or any other key which includes as many as possible of the notes of the key of Eb) can play along at least some of the way. On this diagram you can see which notes are included in which key. Or maybe this one is better because it also directly shows the notes of those in-between keys like Eb as I mentioned.

- For fully chromatic instruments that can play in any key the character of the instrument can sound very different in different keys, because the harmonics sound different (less bassy, more bassy, sometimes people will speak of "timbre"). So if you're bored of playing a song on a guitar in the key of G you can change to a different key and it'll sound different. Particularly if you change key by using a capo.. put it on the 5th fret and it sounds like a different, higher-pitched instrument (the "timbre" or tonal quality changes). Likewise, a song played on a high F whistle can sound different from when played (with the same fingerings, which means that it's transposed) on a low A whistle. It'll probably sound more lively on the small whistle, but it depends on the song.

- Or switch from a big instrument like a guitar to a small instrument like ukulele and you may find that the original key doesn't sound very good because of the different pitch of the ukulele. So choose another key. This will almost never be just another octave, something played in the key of C on the guitar can sound better in the key of E on the ukulele, for example (never mind that E is a hated chord on the uke.. the most common question from beginners is "how to play that $@# E chord". But that's another story).

- Then you have those people with perfect pitch (or absolute pitch, which is really what it should be called). They will easily hear the difference between something played in the key of Em and the same song played in the key of Cm. It may even induce a very different feeling to hear the song in another key. While for most people it will sound the same, unless you hear a reference somewhere. Think of "Happy Birthday" ("Tanti Augiri A Te") - someone will start to sing it in a range which fits their voice, and everybody else will fall in, but it'll sound like "Happy Birthday" whatever the key happens to be. (More likely it'll be something which is between some keys, unless the singer that starts it has perfect pitch or has been a singer or musician long enough to automatically fall into some key.) The notes (note names) are different, but the tune is the same.

-Tor

[mor.whistle]

Thanks everybody, there's quite a lot of new information and after a quick glance I already feel more comfortable.

I will read the new material again more carefully and get back to you as soon as I can.

Thank you guys, I truly appreciate your help.

Ciao

[JaakkoK]

Thanks everybody, there's quite a lot of new information and after a quick glance I already feel more comfortable.

Maybe you should get a book on elementary music theory and have a look in it. You might discover many interesting things there.

[david_h]

Since the discussion is at the top again i will point to a resource that often gets forgotten !

http://www.chiffandfipple.com/whistlekeys.html

[mor.whistle]

I have been thinking, experimenting and reading a lot about the issue at hand and thanks to many of things emerged in this discussion I have been able to narrow down my inquiries and started to grasp the whole concept.

I want to start first by addressing a few late contributions:

Maybe you should get a book on elementary music theory and have a look in it. You might discover many interesting things there.

Yes, you're absolutely right.
So far I was relying on music theory I could find here and there on the net, which is plenty of course, but in this way I can't benefit from following a method that gradually takes me through the steps.
I'll definitively look for it.

Since the discussion is at the top again i will point to a resource that often gets forgotten !
http://www.chiffandfipple.com/whistlekeys.html

Rightly so, I had forgotten about that resource.
When I found Chiff and Fipple I read every article on the site, which of course included the page you linked. At the time I couldn't really make sense of what was in it, probably just added confusion in my head and later on, when I started to better understand keys I simply didn't remember of that article and that it was definitively worth re-reading.

But also, it's worth pointing out that for irish traditional music (and I think Scottish and others as well, but I don't play those) sheet music is not the starting point.

Don't worry Nico, I'm very well aware of what you're saying, my reference to "reading" the music sheet was merely intended to help carrying my point across. I can't actually play by reading the music sheet and although in theory I (sort of) know the length of notes and their position on the staves I'm not able to figure out the melody just by reading the sheet. Anyway, my focus was more on music theory at large then Irish music per se and how is usually played.

Now, to apply some of this thinking to the different contexts of trad. music, nursery rhymes and so on, most session tunes etc. have a standard key (some have several and there are many, for example, that you might find in G or A), but you'd always tend to pick the most suitable key for a singer. It's not 'wrong' to pick up a different whistle and rattle off a 'standard' tune in a different key, but it's not normally going to work like that in a standard session context (with obvious exceptions like 'Eb sessions' etc.). So, yes, music is in some ways 'the relation between notes' and you shouldn't be afraid to try anything you like along these lines for your own (and maybe also others') satisfaction.

I have experimented with that, read ahead.

Hope that helps when it's both simple and complicated at the same time, but looks like you're getting there because you're asking the right questions!

This is highly encouraging and admittedly I feel like I'm getting somewhere, I still don't know if it is "there" that I'm going to but I'm going nonetheless.

I vaguely remember working out some of this by experimentation when I was starting.

If you can play 'Amazing Grace' starting on the bottom note of your whistle try starting it on the second note and then starting on the fifth note (XXO OOOO). Its the same tune isn't it ? If you have a D whistle and a C whistle compare starting on the bottom note on the D whistle with the second note on the C whistle. (this only works for tunes that miss out some notes of the scale).

That is interesting because incidentally (well, not really since you likely mentioned it on purpose) Amazing Grace has no F or C (sharp or flats or naturals) therefor either by using the same fingering of a D or on a C whistle or by playing the right notes (which is simply one hole higher for C whistle) it just works.

But that's likely what puzzled me because if (as I soon and often heard from whistle tutors and players) switching to a whistle in a different key did not require to change the fingering because "you're just playing different notes!", then what were notes about?
In fact, say that I use a D whistle and I play reading from a music sheet a tune that starts with an A (first two holes covered) and that is fine of course because I am indeed playing an A, but then when I use a C whistle and I play with the same fingering I play a G instead it is fine as well.
Also playing with a C whistle the same tune and starting with only the first hole covered (the A on a C whistle) is fine too. That's when and where the confusion arose.

How is it possible that I can play different notes or the same notes on differently keyd whistles and all is fine?

Well, now I've come to understand that that's because in whistle of different keys the balance between notes is respected so that they are, relatively to each other, harmonious in the same way that notes from different keys are relatively to each other.
Indeed that's how keys are made, the F and C sharp in the key of D are not an arbitrary choice of tinwhistle makers who thought that it would be fancy to add those sharps to stir things up.
That's why Amazing Grace can work from D to C just by playing all notes a hole higher while, say, Auld Lang Syne can't.
I think that now I get this. (Do I?)

When this guy picked up an Eb whistle or a C whistle or a Bb whistle he would play the tune fingering it exactly as he did on the D whistle, and most likely be unconcerned or even unaware that all the notes coming out of his whistle now, technically, have different names. In fact he would most likely name the notes just as he would on his D whistle, though of course the actual "sounding pitches" are completely different when he's playing a whistle other than a D whistle.

Indeed, I was aware that different notes were in the mix but I couldn’t and can't help being very concerned about it.
Most of the times I can live with the fact that I don't understand something, usually it happens because I don't care about working hard enough to get it, but when I want to understand something, not knowing what I'm doing and being clueless about the rules of the game bothers me pretty much.

Now that I've started to play the tinwhistle, I also want to understand music theory, at least the basics, and not just play tunes and be unconcerned or even unaware of what I'm doing (not that I think there's anything wrong with it). In this respect the tin whistle and the closely related Irish music are merely incidental in the larger picture of learning music as a whole which is something that, although as many state is not at all necessary for tin whistles and Irish music, I don't want to miss out.

That would be transposing in octave steps only, e.g C1 -> C2, or D1 -> D2 (one octave up). But you can always transpose any key to any key, so if you transpose from they key of C to the key of G then instead of playing the original melody as (for "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star") C C G G A A G you will now play the melody as G G D D E E D.

Or, played in the key of D (as moving from a C whistle to a D whistle) you would be playing it as D D A A B B A. What's common is that in all those keys the sequence for this melody is the root note (the note with the same name as the key), then 7 half-tones up, then 2 half-tones up, then 2 half-tones down. So the intervals are always the same, as you noted.

I have been experimenting with whistles in different keys (D, C and Eb namely) and noticed how the same fingering works in all of them, but also how playing the same notes, however differently fingered and more difficult to play when accidentals (to the specific key) happen, works too.

So basically what I understood so far is that a specific song has a specific set of notes that define it and also a specific intended key (more on this later) in relation to which all notes refer to (this is still a bit foggy, so far the sense I can make of this is that on the stave you state the key and you don't need to specify accidentals that fall within the key, but I figure that there's more to it).
This should in a certain sense allow players of diatonic instruments like tin whistles to choose the whistle in the same key of the music they want to play in order to avoid having to fall into accidentals (which of course can also be present in the form of exceptions) and, once the song is mastered and the fingering is well known, the player can use some other whistle in a different key, use the same fingering and, although playing different notes, render the melody correctly because the relation between them stays the same.

That's pretty much where I am right now, I still need to understand how keys come about, what's the exact relation between them, what rules govern them (like the circle of fifths which honestly is still incomprehensible for me) and much more.
I also need to make sense of a lot of technical words.

-Some instruments are limited to the notes available for the instrument. A "D" whistle can only play what it's designed for. When I played in a brass band as a kid my Eb instrument could only play notes available to the instrument, the only key I could play all the notes of would be just Eb [not entirely true but for this discussion it'll suffice]. So the marches etc. would have to be transposed to Eb or something matching. What's interesting in this context is that all the sheet music I got handed was written as if my instrument was in the key of C.. never in Eb. So I would play the 'C', 'D', 'E' notes on the sheet music, but technically (as measured by a tuner) I was really playing 'Eb', 'F', 'G'.

That is something that made a question mark appear over my head when I stumbled over Greensleeves.
The sheets I found had a few notes out of the range of my whistle, plus Greensleeves has a few accidentals that require half covered holes in succession and although I hope that one day I will be able to do that triple half covered holes' succession, for the moment I started wondering if Greensleeves could be transposed to a more newbie-friendly fingering pattern.
But not knowing what keys are I was having hard times figuring how to overcome this difficulty and although I have been searching and trying to understand, I was too clueless to get close.
This, plus some other similar problems brought me here asking for guidance.
I am receiving a great guidance so far.

Think of "Happy Birthday" ("Tanti Augiri A Te") - someone will start to sing it in a range which fits their voice, and everybody else will fall in, but it'll sound like "Happy Birthday" whatever the key happens to be. (More likely it'll be something which is between some keys, unless the singer that starts it has perfect pitch or has been a singer or musician long enough to automatically fall into some key.) The notes (note names) are different, but the tune is the same.

You know, this example (by the way, it is "auguri" ) helped me a lot because it made me look at the issue from another angle.
Being not musically trained, I of course lack a lot of musical jargon and, what's more important, I most likely misunderstood and misused a lot of terms and concepts.
When some sound (music or singing) is said to be "off-key", a word (or better yet expression) in English that I just learned means "stonato" in Italian, it refers to exactly this we're talking about here.
But aside from knowing that off-key or stonato refers to that unpleasantness that we feel when we hear some music or singing to be, indeed, off-key, we (the musically untrained) usually don't know what it means exactly.
I said that off-key means "stonato" in Italian, I owe everybody a clarification about a word from a different language (although being a lot of the musical jargon plain Italian, maybe you do know, still).
The word "stonato" can be divided in two parts: the first is the prefix "s" and the second is "tonato".
The first part, the "s" derives from the Latin "ex" meaning "off/away from" and "tonato" which means "tuned" (shortened from "intonato" meaning "in-tune"). So basically "stonato" in Italian means "off-tune" and to my ears the immediate and direct sense that is perceived from the word "stonato" is indeed "off tune" and not "off-key", which might be and most likely is quite the same but still one cannot make the assumption without knowing better. This is to say that the feeling of unpleasantness we usually feel when we hear some music or some singing which is off-key, we (always those who are not musically trained) call it off-tune, without even knowing exactly what, in music theory, is intended with being in tune.

So, now I understand that when I ear someone singing and not being off-key (so not being "stonato") he or she is most likely singing in some key, whichever works, in as much the same way as I play Auld Lang Syne on any whistle with different key and the same fingering hence different notes but still correct "melody".

Now, I feel more confident about keys and I want to further push the discussion with the aid of a practical example.

I have in my hands the music sheet of "Hen wlad fy nhadau" (anthem of Wales) check it here (I'm referring to the voice part).

From what I see by the signs of flats at the beginning of each stave on B, A and E, I understand that the music is intended to be played in the key of Eb (can you confirm this?) which has all the right accidentals and on a tin whistle in the key of Eb doesn't require to jump through hoops to play half covered holes.

Now, with a Eb whistle in my hands, I would play the music starting with Eb*, G, F, Eb*, etc. (xxx xxx, xxx xoo, xxx xxo, xxx xxx, etc.). (*is also the E which is lower then the flat sign supposed to be flat in the Eb key?)
So far, so good. But at some point there is a D lower than the lowest Eb. I can't go lower than the lowest note so I only have two options: start the tune from the second octave and play it all the way in higher notes, hoping that my whistle can hit the highest Eb which would fall in the third octave or switch to a different key that is as much suitable for the accidentals as the Eb is (Ab is the closest I could figure, with only one accidental on Db).
Of course there is also the option of playing the tune in any other key and half cover the accidentals, but, the main point here is better understanding how keys work, how can we jump through keys in order to use different keys to our advantage (here I'm also referring to what Peter was saying).
I had an unclear understanding that once a music is written in a given key the lowest note is that of the key (so Eb in this case), or maybe it is just that it must start and end on that note, regardless of how high or low the whole thing goes, or maybe none of that.
Anyway, to get back on the practical example, unable to get to that low D and unwilling to shoot all the notes up in the sky, I did what I think is the process of transposing.

I didn't craft a whistle in Ab, I just pretended that another one (a D actually) was an Ab by writing with a pencil the notes corresponding to each hole ( G F Eb Db C Bb Ab from top to bottom) and next to each note the analogous for a D so that on the whistle it read: G=C# (above the first hole, symbolic to indicate no holes covered), F=B, Eb=A, Db=G, C=F#, Bb=E, Ab=D.

Then I read the music sheet and seen that it starts with Eb, G, F, Eb, etc. which according to the equation translates to A, C#, B, A on a D whistle, which is fingered as xoo ooo, ooo ooo, xxo ooo, xoo ooo.
So now I have a proper fingering pattern for the whistle in the key of Ab which, according to all the aforementioned, can be used on any other whistle although by playing different notes.
Am I getting there?

Is there some sense in what I'm saying and doing, what is right and what is wrong.

Thanks again for your help.

Ciao

[Tor]

Well, now I've come to understand that that's because in whistle of different keys the balance between notes is respected so that they are, relatively to each other, harmonious in the same way that notes from different keys are relatively to each other.
Indeed that's how keys are made, the F and C sharp in the key of D are not an arbitrary choice of tinwhistle makers who thought that it would be fancy to add those sharps to stir things up.
That's why Amazing Grace can work from D to C just by playing all notes a hole higher while, say, Auld Lang Syne can't.
I think that now I get this. (Do I?)

Yes, you do

(by the way, it is "auguri" )

Sorry, that was a typo! I know how to spell it - I should, after I lived in Italy for a year

Being not musically trained, I of course lack a lot of musical jargon and, what's more important, I most likely misunderstood and misused a lot of terms and concepts.
When some sound (music or singing) is said to be "off-key", a word (or better yet expression) in English that I just learned means "stonato" in Italian, it refers to exactly this we're talking about here.
But aside from knowing that off-key or stonato refers to that unpleasantness that we feel when we hear some music or singing to be, indeed, off-key, we (the musically untrained) usually don't know what it means exactly.
I said that off-key means "stonato" in Italian, I owe everybody a clarification about a word from a different language (although being a lot of the musical jargon plain Italian, maybe you do know, still).
The word "stonato" can be divided in two parts: the first is the prefix "s" and the second is "tonato".
The first part, the "s" derives from the Latin "ex" meaning "off/away from" and "tonato" which means "tuned" (shortened from "intonato" meaning "in-tune"). So basically "stonato" in Italian means "off-tune" and to my ears the immediate and direct sense that is perceived from the word "stonato" is indeed "off tune" and not "off-key", which might be and most likely is quite the same but still one cannot make the assumption without knowing better. This is to say that the feeling of unpleasantness we usually feel when we hear some music or some singing which is off-key, we (always those who are not musically trained) call it off-tune, without even knowing exactly what, in music theory, is intended with being in tune.

So, now I understand that when I ear someone singing and not being off-key (so not being "stonato") he or she is most likely singing in some key, whichever works, in as much the same way as I play Auld Lang Syne on any whistle with different key and the same fingering hence different notes but still correct "melody".

I must admit I'm not sure (not being a native English speaker) about the common or correct use of 'off-key', but I suspect it's more used as your 'off-tune' (stonato), as when e.g. an untrained singer is unable to sing the correct intervals between notes. However I believe I have also heard 'off-key' used when someone starts to play in, say, the key of G when the rest of the band is playing in some other key.

-Tor

[david_h]

That's why Amazing Grace can work from D to C just by playing all notes a hole higher while, say, Auld Lang Syne can't. I think that now I get this. (Do I?)

Hmm. Have you tried it with Auld Lang Syne ?

When I was getting it (sort of) sorted in my head I had a lot of backs of envelopes with TTSTTTS written on them, and things like
D t E t F# s G t A t B t C# s D
Simply by using those intervals between the notes in a diatonic scale it is possible to work through all that is needed.

If you search this site for the string TTSTTTS you will find more discussion than you probably want about transposing and such-like things.

Getting back to Amazing Grace the backs of the envelopes had for the notes being used:

D t E ts G t A t B ts D Starting at the first hole on the D whistle
E t F# st A t B t C# st E Starting at the second hole on the D whistle
C t D ts F t G t A ts C Starting at the first hole on the C whistle
D t E st G t A t B st D Starting at the second hole on the C whistle - same as the first one

The intervals are the same so the melody sounds the same but in three different keys, one of them twice.
st and ts are the same interval, I have written them that way because the unused note is between them.