Having trouble with ornamentation

[Jantodec]

Hi everybody! I'm still a newbie here in Whistleville, but I'm interested in trying to add ornamentation to some of the slower airs that I've learned. I've been told to ignore trying to add ornamentation while learning a piece, instead focusing on getting the rhythm, tempo, and sound right, but once I have those down, I find myself standing at the base of a huge cliff, believing ornamentation to be perched somewhere near the top.

I've looked online and done a bunch of reading, and I know how they're done, but actually fitting them seamlessly into a piece is a whole 'nother story for me. I'm a French Horn player, and so I'm trying to drill breath articulations out of my head, so I can better understand the use and application of Irish ornamentation.

So I reach out to y'all, because you've helped me so much with my previous whistle questions. What can I do to smooth the transition of instruments, and learn how to ornament pieces?

Songs I'm very familiar with:
The Foggy Dew
The South Wind
Down by the Sally Gardens
*tunes that I find in my head...

On a side note: I'm currently using Gregory Mahan's website to find all my music, and I'm working on memorizing Róisín Dubh, but his copy has that nasty "fake ornamentation" stuff all over the place. damn cue notes. If you know where I can find a copy without all that nonsense, that'd be great. I want to learn it by next week when I get my Becker Low D in.

[ggiles]

I've been at it for a year now and can offer a bit of advice. I found that in my case to get some ornamentation into my playing I decided to look at the whistle as a piper would (or at least how I perceive one would since I don't play pipes). You cannot use your mouth to articulate notes ... just provide a constant stream of air and figure out how to emphasize notes with just your fingers. The county down was a first good tune for this for me since it has a lot of repeating notes ... 3 e's ... 2 g's ... slide up to b .... etc... You can just tap them, cut them turn it into rolls. So pick a tune with lots of repeating notes and find different ways to break them up. You are on the right track ... just start doing it.

[AngelicBeaver]

What's helped me the most is learning what an ornament is, listening to someone play it in a tune, and then practicing it, listening for the correct rhythm. Cuts and taps are very easy to understand, but rolls require a very particular rhythm to sound right, and I didn't have the coordination to execute one properly at first, so it was hard to see how they went. If you practice the mechanics, you should eventually be able to replicate the rhythm, or at least see where you are going.

Also, check out Michael Eskin's videos. Through these videos, I figured out rolls because he plays slowly, WITH ornamentation, and in the context of the tune so you can hear where they go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6idv6eJA2iQ

Lots of good stuff in these videos.

Also, keep in mind that some people use very little ornamentation on slow airs. Just enough to move it along. You don't want to detract from the slow airness, and you don't want ornamentation being used to cover for poor breath control or poor playing technique.

One more thing. For me, the best ornamentation practice is playing jigs and reels. Slow airs are some of my favorite things to play, but I didn't really start to understand ornaments until I started playing the faster pieces, as ornaments really help these faster pieces roll along.

[ecohawk]

Welcome to C&F.

Your philosophy for learning tunes is fine for now. AngelicBeaver has offered good advice on this too. I can't speak to ggiles suggestion about emulating pipers as I have no expertise in that area but it sounds logical if you know, or intend to know, that world.

But if I were you I would certainly not forget breath control and your mouth for they are very useful on ornamentation. You certainly can use your mouth to articulate notes. It's essential to advanced playing. Some tonguing of notes will be necessary as there are changes between notes and intervals which are greatly facilitated by this technique. On some whistles, take my Goldie Low whistles for example, the transition from second octave G up to A, B, or C# position (as on a D whistle) is nearly impossible without tonguing or, as I prefer, a glottal stop. For me it is the best way to insure a clean transition. Switching from low D to C# or any transition where more than three fingers move on and off the whistle simultaneously is greatly facilitated by using a simultaneous glottal stop to help guard against squeaks particularly on whistles with big holes. The glottal stop is not second nature but if you play horns you know what it is. And glottal stops are not only much more subtle and effective than tonguing when playing airs, they can be executed more quickly on faster pieces IMHO.

Don't reinvent yourself and previous musical experience to play the whistle. Use what you works. There are always debates between those who believe in or eschew tonguing but I don't know anyone who doesn't do it sometimes. Just don't over use it to enunciate each note like a recorder player might.

Perfect practice makes perfect. Good luck.

ecohawk

P.S. I'll pm you a version of Roisin Dubh later this evening, without all the ornaments, for a D whistle.

[Mr.Gumby]

The best thing is to listen to good whistleplaying (if I'd define it we will probably get a fight so I won't).

As usual I would recommend Bro Steve's Transcription page for examples of good traditional players (with bit of light comment on what to look out for) as well as Steve's general writing on ornamentation, breathing etc.

The advice to play as a piper would, well, I suppose you'll want to understand the pipes (I am thinking of the Irish pipes here) and one thing about them is that you CAN stop the flow of air playing them. Play the whistle like it's a whistle, that's a good start.

[Mr Ed]

The best thing is to listen to good whistleplaying...

Amen to that!

Just last night I was listening to a Micho Russell album for what could've been the 20th time, I don't know. Anyway, there were things that I picked up on that I hadn't noticed before. Ornamentation aside, he had a great way of changing how he played the phrases of a tune that would add some nice variety to it. Sometimes he would shorten the duration of a note, and other times through he would play it a little longer. I'm sure this is what others do too, but you don't always have to slow the track down to hear Mr. Russell doing it.

[MTGuru]

On a side note: I'm currently using Gregory Mahan's website to find all my music, and I'm working on memorizing Róisín Dubh, but his copy has that nasty "fake ornamentation" stuff all over the place. damn cue notes. If you know where I can find a copy without all that nonsense, that'd be great.

Oh dear. I just looked at the Wandering Whistler transcription (here). I'm not sure of the source, but there's really nothing wrong with it as far as it goes. The tune is, of course, a slow air. And if "nasty fake ornamentation", "damn cue notes", and "nonsense" are your reaction to the setting, then you're just announcing that you don't understand slow airs, and maybe you're not ready to learn this tune. Which is OK as you say you're a newbie. But if you really want to scale that cliff, then contempt toward what you don't yet understand won't get you there.

Slow airs may be the most difficult of tunes to play. And while the ornamentation is improvisational (in the trad sense), it's not optional. The WW setting is only one interpretation. But if you're thinking in terms of memorization, you could do worse than to learn and imitate one particular setting as a starting point for internalizing the proper reflexes. The setting of Mise Éire on TheSession is another, with the (different) ornamentation also written out.

Better yet, start by listening to this sean nós performance by Joe Heaney, or this lovely (Generation Bb) whistle setting by Matt Cunningham.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGelrimeD7c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzh5uq8rkN0

I've been told to ignore trying to add ornamentation while learning a piece, instead focusing on getting the rhythm, tempo, and sound right

Told by whom, I wonder. Personally, I never think that approach really works. Maybe with simple dance melodies. But trad so-called ornamentation is really not that but articulation, and using some articulation is inseparable from playing even the basic tune. If you're an experienced horn player, you know that music is wholistic, and you can't really pull it apart without doing violence.

In any case, slow airs are performed rubato and ad libitum, so the rhythm and phrasing of dance tunes don't necessarily apply. You really need to start with the voice, including a sense of the lyrics.

If you really want to start with a bare bones melody, then just ignore the written-out graces of a transcription. No one forces you to play them. Black them out mentally or with a pencil, or edit them out of the ABC. It's what an experienced player might do to "open up" a setting for their own interpretation. Of course, knowing the difference between "essential" and "non-essential" graces implies a good understanding of slow airs in the first place.

Hope that helps. And if you get to the point where you might post your own recording, people here will be happy to offer you feedback, if you're wearing your asbestos undies. Good luck!

[Mr.Gumby]

Maybe a piper's thing but my mental soundtrack plays it in G rather than D.

[MTGuru]

Maybe a piper's thing but my mental soundtrack plays it in G rather than D.

The Matt Cunningham setting I linked is indeed played in G fingering, on a Bb whistle [key corrected above].

[Jantodec]

I'm getting the feeling that most of you believe slow airs to be harder than jigs/reels, is that correct? If so/not, where would be the best place to start (I'd prefer a style and a specific song, if you can)?

also, I checked out Eskin's videos on Youtube, and they seem helpful, I just can't follow along right now because my neighbors don't like me playing when the sun isn't up.

[Mr.Gumby]

I'm getting the feeling that most of you believe slow airs to be harder than jigs/reels, is that correct? If so/not, where would be the best place to start (I'd prefer a style and a specific song, if you can)?

It's never black or white and many airs are very simple melodies. At the same time it can very hard indeed to play them well, some would say knowledge of the song (and the style of singing) connected to the air is imperative. That would certainly be true for most airs but I don't think tunes like Mo Ghile Mear etc. would be too hard to grasp (realise that a lot of these simple airs given by tutors are songs learned in school, ones assumed the player is very familiar with. Which may not be the case for those who received their schooling outside Ireland. eg Oro, sé do bheatha a bhaile, Tree in the Bog, Roddy McCorley etc) Many polkas and marches are good to take you through the first phase of playing.

[NicoMoreno]

Yes, polkas and marches have simple melodies (usually, more or less), but polkas, like some airs, are challenging to play well on whistle. Most of the time they end up sounding like poor marches. Learn a couple, maybe, but do return to them in a few years when you've gotten more proficient.

[Mr.Gumby]

Most of the time they end up sounding like poor marches. Learn a couple, maybe, but do return to them in a few years when you've gotten more proficient.

Ofcourse that could be said for most tunes in the hands of a beginner. We all mangled our first tunes but we had to, to learn the skills necessary to do them some justice in the end.

[NicoMoreno]

That's true, and it's worth pointing out. The main reason I try to jump on the polka thing is that for most (well, it seems like most) people, they never bother to return to them to try to get them down properly, because "they're just beginner tunes".

[pancelticpiper]

At one time I found air-playing mystifying... my original teacher/mentor would play through an air, and each time a particular phrase was repeated it would be different: different timing, different ornamentation, and sometimes a restructured melody. He seemed to have so much freedom within the structure of the tune. He failed to get me to "see the light" at that time, back in the late 70's.

(I'm talking the rubato sean nos style airs, not Clancy Brothers songs.)

At some point it all made sense to me. I don't remember when or how, but at some point I was able to do some of that myself.

As was said above it comes from a load of listening and playing. Sit down with a particular recording of an air and just tootle along over and over and it will probably come to you.

An album I really like is The Ancient Voice Of Ireland, entirely consisting of airs played on the uilleann pipes by Mick O Brien.

BTW in airs, as in reels and jigs, the so-called "ornaments" are part of the matrix of the thing and can't be added or subtracted as if they were a superfluous separate entity, in my opinion. I don't think I could play an air without all the stylistic stuff that to me is integral to the basic nature of the air.

One time my mentor/teacher did something very interesting to demonstrate to me how to play airs: he played some tune like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star or Somewhere Over The Rainbow or some such as a sean nos air, full of that glorious expansive phrasing, continually inventive melodic restructuring, and cool-sounding ornamentation. I think his point was that it was the way you played an air that made it sound "Irish", not the constituent notes of the basic melody.