advice re DIY whistle material

[grumpidoc]

Hi, newbie here. Only playing whistle 6 months and already have WHOAD! It's great hearing the different sounds from different types / keys whistles (not sure the neighbours would agree!)
I have a wonderful husband who can make just about anything and is going to make me a whistle (thanks to Guido Gonzato's excellent instructions). My question is how much difference in the final sound does the material make? I know the fipple is the main thing, and that there are lots of variables like bore, wall thickness, hole size etc, but I'm more concerned about the actual type of sound.
To illustrate, I have a cheap tin D (maker unknown- horribly squawky till I fitted a paperclip mute, now much sweeter sound), a Parkes C/D 'Every' combo - easy to play and purer sound, Generation Bb - great tone but squawky changing octaves (yes I know that's probably me!) and a Dixon trad G which I absolutely love. So the 3 tin whistles although varying in chiff have the tone or timbre I'm looking for. Is that due to the materials or just coincidence? Can anyone enlighten me? He's looking to use PVC or copper pipe.
(Of course I'm hoping that hubby will get Whistle Construction Disorder and want to make many and varied............!)
Thanks for any help

[Feadoggie]

So the 3 tin whistles although varying in chiff have the tone or timbre I'm looking for. Is that due to the materials or just coincidence?

Welcome to the neighborhood.

I got infected with whistle making disorder many years ago - in the last millenium even. Seesh! There is no cure that I know of and if anyone knows of one I do not want to hear about it. I started making whistles in part to feed my desire to have wooden whistles in many, many types of wood. I thought making my own would be a less expensive path to take to get to that destination. Nah. Lathes, milling machines and all the associated tooling are not cheap.

Materials do not of themselves make the tone of the whistle, IMO. It is a matter of many variables. The design and construction details matter more than the material. I have made the same design in wood, aluminum, brass, composites and PVC. They sound generally the same when recorded. The material does color the sound a bit but that effect is not always evident to listeners five to ten feet away.

On the other hand, each type of material does allow the maker to take advantage of the strengths of that material. Thin walled brass body tubes will give you very low chimney heights for the toneholes compared to other materials which cannot be practically worked to that thin a wall. But that same thin walled brass tube is not optimal for a headpiece since you want some chimney depth at the voicing window. Wood or CPVC might work better in that regard. So you really want to design a whistle using appropriate dimensions and then choose materials that work well to those dimensions.

Bottom line is that a very good whistle can be made from many different materials or combinations of materials. It is a matter of design and craftsmanship. Having a lot of experience as a player on as many whistles as possible and knowing what works well and why as opposed to what works less well is the best tool in the shop of a whistle maker.

Your husband should start with some material that is readily available and not very expensive. There will be, shall we say, some experiments that do not pan out in the beginning. PVC/CPVC pipe is a good choice to begin with. The cast-offs diminish over time as experience is gained. Then he can move on to the brass, nickel, sterling, platinum and kingwood, and snakewood, etc.....

There is also the matter of what tooling is needed to work with different materials. Wood working may require one set of tools. Metal working may require another tool room altogether. Most craftsmen will want to work with the material they enjoy and know best. I like working with wood personally but I recognize the usefulness of all the other materials we have available to make whistles. Eventually the addicted whistlesmith will want to try every material they can get their hands on.

If you follow the instructions and use the designs on Guido Gonzato's website keep in mind that in order for those plans to work as specified you will have to use pipe with the dimensions he indicates. If you use another material with different dimensions you (or your hubby) will have to re-calculate the design somewhat for the dimensions of the new material. I have a couple of GG's whistles here and they are quite good whistles. Dr. Gonzato knows what he is doing. His website is a great service for budding whistle makers.

Be nice to your whistle maker. I bet he can't make just one.

Enjoy the journey.

Feadoggie

[trill]

grumpidoc,

Welcome to Whistling !

PVC has a number of advantages. It's cheap, readily available, and cuts easily.

PVC has some downsides. The main one I want to mention is: the dust+trimmings are very unhealthy. Your hubby should wear a mask when working with it.

Happy Whistling !

trill

[brewerpaul]

I'm with Feadoggie. I don't think that the choice of materials is a big factor in the sound of a whistle. The thousand other variables in design and construction are what makes the difference. As I've written here before, I've often made two supposedly identical whistles, with wood from the same billet of wood, identical design, same fittings, and had them come out with very distinct tones and playing characteristics. In this case, it's the voicing that makes the difference. All of those dimensions around the wind way, window and blade are critical. Differences of a thousandth of an inch or so can be game changers. One delicate stroke of an ultra fine diamond file can make a huge difference.
This part of my construction is all done by hand, so variations inevitably sneak in. This is part of the joy/frustration of whistle making. One whistle might immediately sound amazing while it's "twin" takes a lot of tweaking to get it to where I'm happy with it.
Go with PVC and do heed the warning about dust. In addition to wearing a good dust mask, I'd advise using black automotive wet/dry sandpaper on it, with the sandpaper and PVD wet. Work over a basin of water and dip the paper and PVC frequently to wash away the paste that results.
FWIW-- one of the three best whistles I own is a PVC whistle in G by the late Glenn Schultz. It's magical despite it's humble material.

[Feadoggie]

PVC has some downsides. The main one I want to mention is: the dust+trimmings are very unhealthy. Your hubby should wear a mask when working with it.

Go with PVC and do heed the warning about dust. In addition to wearing a good dust mask, I'd advise using black automotive wet/dry sandpaper on it, with the sandpaper and PVD wet. Work over a basin of water and dip the paper and PVC frequently to wash away the paste that results.

I'd like to generalize the advice a bit here.

Always work safe!

PVC/CPVC dust is not a good thing to aspirate. There's no need to single out the plastics though. Every material from which a whistle can be made, with the possible exception of one of those carrot whistles, can present their own risks. The dust, oils and resins from exotic woods, cocobolo and grenadillo as examples, are notorious for initiating health problems in many individuals. Fine dust from filing aluminum or brass can't be too good for you either. So use common sense when you work on whistles regardless of the material you choose.

FWIW-- one of the three best whistles I own is a PVC whistle in G by the late Glenn Schultz. It's magical despite it's humble material.

And I have to agree with Paul, some of the best whistles I play are the Water Weasels made by Glenn Schultz out of either CPVC plumbing pipe or PVC electrical conduit. It's not the material that matters as much as what the whistle maker can do with it.

So, work safe and have fun making then playing some handmade whistles

Feadoggie

[Tor]

The PVC dust is not something that should be washed out through the sewage system either. There's more than enough out there already.. it ends up in everything from polar bears to birds to people. Nasty stuff.

-Tor

[grumpidoc]

Thank you all - that's very helpful to know.
I think as Feadoggie suggests, he'll be going with PVC initially as it's cheap and easy to work with. Hopefully that will be enough to give him the bug for making more whistles! I will be sure to stand over him to make certain he takes the appropriate safety precautions.
Brewerpaul - I hadn't thought of sanding PVC wet - will pass that on to hubby.
Trill - I'll make sure I stand over him to make certain he takes the appropriate precautions, for himself and the environment.
Feadoggie - I envy you the wooden whistles. I love wooden whistles and recorders. Perhaps if I started to give hubbie the tooling for Christmas / birthdays he'd have a go.............

[syn whistles]

Please allow me to disagree with Feadoggie and brewerpaul in that I do believe that the material a whistle is made from does indeed affect the quality of the sound produced. In my humble experience of making whistles from wood, aluminium and brass/delrin, I can detect distinct 'signatures' from each material. Aluminium is quite a 'clean' sound, let's say , whereas wood whistles with the same dimensions and voicing have the sharp edge taken off to give a mellower effect, . Brass bodied whistles do, to my ear, have an inherent 'brassiness' of tone that sets them apart, .
I would love to demonstrate comparisons of chart thingies made by computers and expensive microphones to illustrate my empirical suggestions, but I fear that is beyond the scope of this correspondent.
I do agree though, it will be hard to stop at one!

[ytliek]

Welcome to the whistle forum. I am not a whistlemaker and not so crafty either, however, I would like to add a comment that the whistle material chosen has a certain "feel" to it. That feel may be just aesthetic while so is the tone. Find the whistle material that you like to touch, hold, play with, and availability. I prefer the feel and sound of wood whistles, but, that's just me.

Have fun, always have fun and keep playing.

[grumpidoc]

Thank you to everyone for your advice. I am now the proud possessor of an F whistle, slightly tuneable (the sliding joint doesn't slide far), and even better, a husband who is already planning mark 2 complete with modifications including a thumb rest (goodbye to blu-tak, or poster putty). My joy is complete!

[irishmuse]

Hiya Grumpidoc. I know I'm coming late to the party here if your husband is already off the blocks with the whistlemaking, but if you use the search facility to find a thread with the header
"Making Alto Whistles Lately" I posted some comments about, and pictures of, Low and Alto whistles made with the black electrical conduit sold at B&Q home improvement stores. I don't know what material you eventually sourced but as you're in the UK and are going to make others in the Mark2 phase I'd recommend giving it a try. It's cheap,light yet rigid and needs no sanding to get a shiny finish.

[grumpidoc]

Hiya Grumpidoc. I know I'm coming late to the party here if your husband is already off the blocks with the whistlemaking, but if you use the search facility to find a thread with the header
"Making Alto Whistles Lately" I posted some comments about, and pictures of, Low and Alto whistles made with the black electrical conduit sold at B&Q home improvement stores. I don't know what material you eventually sourced but as you're in the UK and are going to make others in the Mark2 phase I'd recommend giving it a try. It's cheap,light yet rigid and needs no sanding to get a shiny finish.

Thanks for that - it's exactly what we used - the 2.5cm for the F, and now working on an 'E' body for it, then planning some 2cm for an 'A', then trying a new head that doesn't make me nearly pass out for the high notes, then.............. it's no good, he'll have to give up the day job!
Interestingly we found that despite being the same diameter as Guido Gonzato uses in his instructions, the whistle had to be a fair bit shorter than he specified for the same base note. Have you any idea why that might be? I did physics at school but that was a LONG time ago, and as far as I can remember never covered anything really useful like whistle making!
Did you find any other useful bits at B&Q?

[Tunborough]

Interestingly we found that despite being the same diameter as Guido Gonzato uses in his instructions, the whistle had to be a fair bit shorter than he specified for the same base note. Have you any idea why that might be?

What matters is inside diameter. The tubing you are using may have a thinner wall than Guido's water pipe, so even when the outside diameter is the same, the inside diameter will be larger. When the I.D. is larger, the required length will be less.

[irishmuse]

I think,as Tunborough says, its ID X wall thickness. I got the B&Q pipe @ 17mm ID x wall thickness 1.5mm. Anyway to save you some time with trial & error on your planned alto in A here are the measurements I ended up with after I had tuned up the A I made from the 20mm conduit. I can't reproduce a schematic but I'll try to use the same terminology as on the Gonzato website if that's what you've been working with. So from my notes:

Overall length came out @ 387mm (including cap)
Cap @26mm L
Lip cut@ 35mm from top of whistle
Window 8mm L x 10mm W ( I keep the cap about 1mm North of the end of the block )

Holes measured from lip:
L1 @ 152mm@ 6.8mm diam.
L2 @ 178mm@8.2mm diam.
L3 @ 203mm @ 6.7mm diam.
R1@ 236mm @ 6.9 diam.
R2@ 260mm @ 9.4 diam.
R3 @ 290 mm @6.7 diam

I used a conical step drill bit to save having to change bits all the time and fine- tuned up from the bell note with a file, hence the irregular hole sizes I ended up with. You can probably get step drill bits @ B&Q: a cheapie set Down Under cost me about a fiver in Oz dollar terms.They speed things up for sure, and ream out some of the swarf inside the hole too.

Hope this helps with the A. BTW has your man tried the hole calculator programs accessible through C&F? I've found them really helpful too.

[grumpidoc]

I think,as Tunborough says, its ID X wall thickness. I got the B&Q pipe @ 17mm ID x wall thickness 1.5mm. Anyway to save you some time with trial & error on your planned alto in A here are the measurements I ended up with after I had tuned up the A I made from the 20mm conduit. I can't reproduce a schematic but I'll try to use the same terminology as on the Gonzato website if that's what you've been working with. So from my notes:

Overall length came out @ 387mm (including cap)
Cap @26mm L
Lip cut@ 35mm from top of whistle
Window 8mm L x 10mm W ( I keep the cap about 1mm North of the end of the block )

Holes measured from lip:
L1 @ 152mm@ 6.8mm diam.
L2 @ 178mm@8.2mm diam.
L3 @ 203mm @ 6.7mm diam.
R1@ 236mm @ 6.9 diam.
R2@ 260mm @ 9.4 diam.
R3 @ 290 mm @6.7 diam

I used a conical step drill bit to save having to change bits all the time and fine- tuned up from the bell note with a file, hence the irregular hole sizes I ended up with. You can probably get step drill bits @ B&Q: a cheapie set Down Under cost me about a fiver in Oz dollar terms.They speed things up for sure, and ream out some of the swarf inside the hole too.

Hope this helps with the A. BTW has your man tried the hole calculator programs accessible through C&F? I've found them really helpful too.

Wow that's brilliantly helpful, thank you. Hubbie's just bought a set of conical drill bits (non stepped) from that other well known purveyor of whistle-making equipment - Screwfix!
We did try a calculator but it kept telling us the whistle should be longer for the bell note than the electronic tuner reckoned.
It'll be quite a while before we get to the A (needing a new mouthpiece too for the different size conduit) but I'll post back here once it's done.
Thanks again