For the Beginner Who Asks: Why Can't I Play Faster?

[BrassBlower]

Listen up Sucka, don't bring our session down!

I Pity the Fool who can't keep up on them reels, ya hear? Hell, even Murdock can play faster than you!









Loren

[Craig Stuntz]

I think that's right. I don't think people go to sessions enough to just listen. It's really important [...]

Hear, hear.

If any of you ever happen to be in central Arkansas at the right time and place to catch one of our sessions ( http://www.arcelts.com/acms1/sessions.htm ), please don't hesitate to join us. New players of all levels are routinely and warmly welcomed.

Forgive me if I'm misreading you, James, but I sense a bit of an implication here that expecting people to sit and listen to tunes is commonly reserved for beginners only (i.e., "advanced" players play in every tune) and that a "beginner-friendly" session would "allow" beginners to play all the time. And I've seen that this is how it works in many places, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing. I know that if I had the whistle ability of Mary Bergin and was sitting in with musicians of similar skill I'd want to spend even more time listening than I do with my current meager playing skills and beginner-friendly sessions.

Indeed, if there's a session where everyone plays all the time and nobody ever (or rarely) stops and listens, I think the musicians should stop and ask themselves what they're doing wrong

[Cayden]

Many people have deluded themselves to the extent to believe that Irish music in pubs is, or should be, a free-for-all where superior musicality and skill are not to be respected or deferred to (in cases it seems that superior ability is actually frowned upon!)

In short, I would point out the obvious: If you sit in to a session where you are effectively lowering the standard of the music it is foolish to expect to be welcomed with open arms on every occasion.

There may well be sessions where you will be welcomed with open arms, but, regardless of how good you think you are or how much you think you deserve, it would be foolish to expect this of every session.

My advice (for what its worth): make yourself a good musician to the extent that these points are no longer an issue.

A lot of the present attitudes to the playing of Irish music are a recipe for resigned sub standardry.

[peeplj]

orgive me if I'm misreading you, James, but I sense a bit of an implication here that expecting people to sit and listen to tunes is commonly reserved for beginners only (i.e., "advanced" players play in every tune) and that a "beginner-friendly" session would "allow" beginners to play all the time.

Nope, that's not it.

We all listen from time to time. Does everyone play in every tune in your sessions?

We've never actually had a beginner (that I know of) try to play every tune or even try to start more than a few tunes. Usually just the fact that they are sitting in the circle is intimidating enough for them.

Perhaps it's the culture, or perhaps we just get a better quality of beginner, here. I don't know.

I do know we have a very friendly session. The few times we've had problems they've proven to be self-resolving.

--James

[Loren]

Many people have deluded themselves to the extent to believe that Irish music in pubs is, or should be, a free-for-all where superior musicality and skill are not to be respected or deferred to (in cases it seems that superior ability is actually frowned upon!)

In short, I would point out the obvious: If you sit in to a session where you are effectively lowering the standard of the music it is foolish to expect to be welcomed with open arms on every occasion.

There may well be sessions where you will be welcomed with open arms, but, regardless of how good you think you are or how much you think you deserve, it would be foolish to expect this of every session.

My advice (for what its worth): make yourself a good musician to the extent that these points are no longer an issue.

A lot of the present attitudes to the playing of Irish music are a recipe for resigned sub standardry.

Huh, I could swear my man T said the same thing earlier......





Loren

[Craig Stuntz]

Does everyone play in every tune in your sessions?

Most people play most tunes, when they're not talking to each other or running for beer. In other words, most people don't seem to spend an appreciable amount of time just listening to others play, although some do. I don't want to come off as judgmental, but listening to tunes is a really important part of the session for me.

-Craig

[peeplj]

A lot of times our trouble is trying to get some one who we know plays to get brave enough to come to the session at all. There's a couple of folks I've been working on for months, now.

Actually getting them into the circle can be its own challenge.

It takes guts to join the circle and it takes guts to take a turn and start a tune.

Usually beginners seem terrified, not pushy.

In my experience, of course. Your mileage may vary.

--James

[Craig Stuntz]

Usually beginners seem terrified, not pushy.

I agree. I've seen it, and I've experienced it myself, many times (I'm still a beginner).

-Craig

[srt19170]

Before you start calling me rude (which is rude in itself) : where did I go wrong ?

You said:

Part of the original point was that Irish music is supposedly played at 'sessionspeed' which according to the original point is faster than any other musical genre and something C&F unattainable members.

I didn't say either thing, as even a quick read of my original posting reveals. I can only assume you're deliberately distorting what I said, and that's rude.

First, I never wrote that session speed is faster than any other musical genre.

What I actually wrote was that few genres play at the pace of a fast reel at a US session. You seem to think that scoffing at that constitutes some kind of rebuttal. If you really don't believe that's true, why don't you point out some of the musical genres that play at tempos of 250 or upwards? (Much less ones that are open to casual musicians.)

Second, I never wrote that session speeds are unattainable by C&Fers.

What I actually wrote was that the average hobbyist musician can expect to take several years to play the whistle at a fast session pace. Since you agreed with me in your first response ("it won't come in weeks or months") you clearly understood my point.

As evidenced by the "why can't I play faster?" postings seen monthly on C&F, many beginners on the whistle have the expectation that they should be able to play at fast session speeds after a few months on the whistle. For most people, that's a false impression, and I think it is better in the long run to understand that it will likely take several years to master the whistle to the point where they can comfortably drop in on a fast session. To judge by the numerous "hear, hear"s my posting generated, that sentiment seems widespread.

Scott

[Cayden]

I won't go and quibble about what you say although I readily admit to not always reading posts all that carefully.

but you did say :

Unless you're particularly gifted, have hours of free time every day to practice, or are already expert on another instrument, it takes several years to play at session speed. You'll probably never be able to play as fast and as well as a professional whistle player, and there's a good chance that you'll never master ornamentation at session speeds (although you might think you have).

where I see no mention of specifically US session. You do mention US sessions specifically later on but only in reference to the time 'they get going'. No session ever starts here before 10.30 by the way and that never stopped many Irish people becoming decent players.

My experience of Irish music is not one that moves at speeds over 250, although I also admit to not having any mental image with that sort of technicalities, I do know Breandan Breathnach's recomended max speed of 234 and remember trying that once when I had access tot a metronome and although I would be comfortable enough at that speed I don't think I hear much faster playing by any sensible musician who knows about irish music.

I think, instead of focussing on the non issue of speed, if you really want to help beginners, it's probably better to focus on issues of rhythm and phrasing which are far more crucial. You can play very good and worthwhile Irish music without reaching '250' but you can't without the other two I mentioned.

[peeplj]

I agree that tunes flow along (or lurch along, as it may be ) at a goodly clip sometimes.

Still, if you want to hear really fast playing, you need to hear a recording of Rampal playing the Telemann solo Fantasias for flute. I don't think I've ever heard any Irish tune played at any speed remotely approaching this. (Rampal was once clocked at over 100 muscle movements per second.)

--James

P.S. edited: the Telemann pieces are fantasias, not concertos. My bad.

[Craig Stuntz]

What I actually wrote was that few genres play at the pace of a fast reel at a US session. You seem to think that scoffing at that constitutes some kind of rebuttal. If you really don't believe that's true, why don't you point out some of the musical genres that play at tempos of 250 or upwards? (Much less ones that are open to casual musicians.)

You must be counting them in 4/4. Nobody would count in 2/2 and play 250 bpm. Even groups like Altan who are commonly described as playing really fast don't come close to that.

Rather than step into an argument over the meaning of "many" vs. "all," can I just suggest that I've found that counting reels in cut time instead of common time has helped me tremendously in dealing with both the speed and getting them to sound like reels instead of long chains of eighth notes? This puts the tempo into a much more manageable 125 bpm, to use your example, and Irish music is hardly the only genre which plays four notes per beat.

I'm serious, counting differently has really helped me.

-Craig

[Cayden]

I'm serious, counting differently has really helped me.

Seriously here, as a small aside, I have seen this mentioned a couple of times recently and I just can't get my head around people actually counting music. I hear a tune and play it the way I think I hear it and so does everybody I know.

[Craig Stuntz]

I'm serious, counting differently has really helped me.

Seriously here, as a small aside, I have seen this mentioned a couple of times recently and I just can't get my head around people actually counting music. I hear a tune and play it the way I think I hear it and so does everybody I know.

I don't mean "counting" literally, i.e., I'm not thinking, "one, two, one, two." I can't imagine doing that. Rather, I'm referring to the fact that when I play a reel I'm tapping my foot twice per measure instead of four times per measure.

-Craig

[Cayden]

Right, I had the impression from what people were saying a while ago they were actually counting. Whatever works I suppose, I have the left foot setting the beat and the other one going double that to fill in the pulse which helped me immensely getting a solid rhythm. Basically what Micho Russell used to do .