Making Water Weasel-like Whistles

[Unseen122]

I'm 17 years old if that gives me any priority.

So am I, but you don't see me complaining.

I would definatly be interested in trying on and I do want a Low D for a concert I am doing on the 27th.

[brewerpaul]

On my WW I could never get over the construction of the labium. I've never seen anything done that perfectly in my life. And thats not done with a machine either! .

Hint on that labium--Glenn used a single cut triangular file which only had teeth on one side (I use an identical one that he gave me). Start on one side of the lip and file almost down to where you want it. Flip the file and file the other side (file will cut differently on each side). File in the middle of the lip, then split the difference between the middle and the sides, yielding 5 flats. Gradually work these smoother and closer to round. I give them a final finish with an extra fine diamond file. You can also make a "file" by gluing some 400 grit sandpaper to a think piece of popsicle stick.

[Wanderer]

Hint on that labium--Glenn used a single cut triangular file which only had teeth on one side (I use an identical one that he gave me).

Any possibility of getting a picture of that file, so I might know what to keep my eye out for? I'm using a standard triangular file

[Loren]

Sounds like Paul is describing a Barrette needle file. Do a search on Google and should find a picture and some sources easily enough.

Friedrich Dick and Grobet files are about the best you can buy, but not cheap compared to most of the others. However, good files are well worth the money.

Paul, it might help them to know what cut# file you're using, and whether it's a german or swiss cut rating number. Trying to file a labium down with too course a file can ruin a good headjoint in no time.


Loren

[Feadoggie]

Ah, the Water Weasel labium, now that is a real piece of craftsmanship. That's a subject that always seems to come up when talking about Water Weasels. Each one seems to be exactly like the next. They are so consistent. And not a mark is visible on any one as a clue to how it was shaped. Very well done. I look at a Sindt and I can see just how the blade was fashioned, same with a Burke and many others. The Weasels don't give a hint, do they?

Paul, thanks for the insights on how to shape the blade. I have an olivewood Busman high D and it is very well done indeed. The method I use is similar to the one you described. I rough the boundaries of the ramp and then establish a profile with a triangle file. Then I smooth the profile with various needle files finally getting to fine sandpaper and 0000 steel wool.

Loren, thanks for the info on the files. Can you suggest a source for these files? I'll do a search on Barette. Would either a knife needle file or a fine pillar file work too? Both have the feature of a flat, non abrasive side which would keep the side of the ramp clean and smooth. I like the knife needle file myself. They come in a variety of sizes and cuts. I have actually taped one side of a triangle file to do the job as well. You can never have enough files, can you?

Dennis

[Loren]

No Dennis, it seems one can never have enough Files!

Rio Grande sells both Dick and Grobet files, but Rio probably isn't the best source for low prices, unless you're buying in quantities of 6 or more, of a given file type and cut.

Any flat bottom needle or extra narrow pillar file (of the correct cut) will do the job, as long as the sides are "safe" (no filing cuts), so you don't file away sidewall material while working on the labium and ramp. My preference for that sort of work is an equalling file with the edges ground
"safe". However for wooden whistles, in general, I carve labiums and ramps rather than file them to shape and dimension, using handmade carving knives - as pictured in my bench photo avatar. But then it's all in how you learn I suppose - nearly identical results can be obtained with both methods.

Loren

[Feadoggie]

Loren, thanks for the Rio Grande suggestion.

But then it's all in how you learn I suppose - nearly identical results can be obtained with both methods.

True enough! Some of us are left to learn by our own devices so I hope folks such as Brewerpaul and yourself keep spreading the wealth of your experience.

Dennis

[Loren]

Hint on that labium--Glenn used a single cut triangular file which only had teeth on one side (I use an identical one that he gave me). Start on one side of the lip and file almost down to where you want it. Flip the file and file the other side (file will cut differently on each side).

I should add: I'm not certain I understand Paul's description about flipping the file around to avoid getting an different cut on one side vs. the other side of the labium. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, because the way I would file the ramp and labium, no file flipping would be needed. However, after thinking about it, I suspect Paul is not using a Barrette needle file afterall, but rather a larger triangle file that has been modified.

At any rate, I wanted to add that if you do need to flip the the file end over end, you'd have to modify a needle file by cutting off the tang, etc. My approach is to simply use fine grade needle files, as described in my previous post. A fine Barrette needle file should accomplish the same thing Paul is describing, as would a safe sided Equalling file.

Loren

[Loren]

Loren, thanks for the Rio Grande suggestion.

You're welcome.

But then it's all in how you learn I suppose - nearly identical results can be obtained with both methods.


True enough! Some of us are left to learn by our own devices so I hope folks such as Brewerpaul and yourself keep spreading the wealth of your experience.

Dennis

Well, you know Dennis, it's a bit of a touchy subject for me, and I suspect some of the other makers who do this sort of thing for a living: On the one hand, I enjoy helping others learn. On the other hand, we have what seem to be more people making and selling whistles every month. Many don't do it for a living, but still, the market is limited, and a professional woodwind maker has to ask him/herself the question "Am I shooting myself in the foot?" It's a bit of a tough call, and I think you'll note that we don't see most of the the commercial makers here offering advice on how to make whistles. It is a tough way to make a living, and many of us have made significant sacrifices to learn the craft - I know I did.

Like I said it can be a bit of a tough call at times, if you see what I mean.



Loren

[Wanderer]

Hint on that labium--Glenn used a single cut triangular file which only had teeth on one side (I use an identical one that he gave me). Start on one side of the lip and file almost down to where you want it. Flip the file and file the other side (file will cut differently on each side).

I should add: I'm not certain I understand Paul's description about flipping the file around to avoid getting an different cut on one side vs. the other side of the labium. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, because the way I would file the ramp and labium, no file flipping would be needed. However, after thinking about it, I suspect Paul is not using a Barrette needle file afterall, but rather a larger triangle file that has been modified.

Yeah, I looked up needle files today, and I coudln't jive Pauls description with the images I found. Pillar files looked promising. I'm just not happy with the triangular file.

[Loren]

Scroll down to the Barrette file on the bottom of the page in the link, and have a look at the profile drawing: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... f%26sa%3DX


That sort of file should work fine. Larger than needle size Barrette files don't have a completely triangular shape, they're trapezoid in shape, not that it matter a whole lot for our purposes.

Actually a trapeziod would be better, so that you're less likely to catch the top of the windway entrance with the top of the triangle......


There tends to be some overlap with regards to what are called Equalling files and Pillar files when you get down to the small sizes, but yes, extra narrow pillar files are a good choice if you can find them in the right size and cut. Pillar files are however typically thicker and bigger than needle size equalling files, which can make a difference, particularly when working on soprano instruments.

Files are a whole world unto themselves really: Flat, Mill, Long Angle, basmati, Second cut, Finishing, all the different shapes cuts, sizes...... I definitely have a case of FAD - File Acquisition Disorder!



Loren

[Jeferson]

Files are a whole world unto themselves really: Flat, Mill, Long Angle, basmati, Second cut, Finishing, all the different shapes cuts, sizes.

Ain't that the truth! Don't we all remember pronouncing one of those file names VERY loudly in shop class?

Jef

[Whitmores75087]

If anyone is a little concerned about not seeing their WW again, let me tell you...don't worry. Before they could be purchased, I offered to buy a Low Tech from Guido. He refused. They were not for sale. But he sent me one for free. That's the kind of guy he is. He paid for the shipping too.

[King Friday]

Guido is making me a Low F this weekend, for nothing but $30. What a guy.

[Tommy]

Hint on that labium--Glenn used a single cut triangular file which only had teeth on one side (I use an identical one that he gave me). Start on one side of the lip and file almost down to where you want it. Flip the file and file the other side (file will cut differently on each side).

I should add: I'm not certain I understand Paul's description about flipping the file around to avoid getting an different cut on one side vs. the other side of the labium. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding,

I am not sure I understand what paul means by flipping the file either.
I do have some files that I cut the handles off, and use them as a pull to cut file. Works fine for undercutting tone holes so the material comes out instead of hanging on the inside.

Sears has a set of needle files. DO NOT BUY THEM. A swiss set can be found at a hobby store or on line. And it looks like there are some real good ones on line.

A cheap finger nail file that looks like it has diamond dust can be shaped with a very slow wet grinder and can be also ground to fit a Xacto knife handle. I use this for tweaking and wood ramps. As paul mentioned emery paper can be glued to a flat or round stick. I like to use double sided tape.