PVC toxicity

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peeplj
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Post by peeplj »

Michael Cronnolly told me he uses PVC specially made for him by GEHR in Germany, which has no toxin at all in it.

But really, even if he didn't, after riding around in cars on interstates to and from work, sitting in front of computers which leak so much radiation that they just might be effective birth control, eating reprocessed god-knows-what in public eateries--I don't really figure there's much my flutes and whistles can do to me that everything else in the environment hasn't already done a better job of.

Also, if you get silver in your body it's a Bad Thing--it causes an incurable condition called argyria--but I don't plan on giving up my siver flute anytime soon. I'll play it till I'm grey--maybe literally! :smile:

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http://www.flutesite.com
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fiddling_tenor
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Post by fiddling_tenor »

What an interesting thread!

From what I know (and every day--after almost 43 years--I discover more that I don't :smile: ), just stepping outside my door can be hazardous to my health.

Someone already mentioned the types of things we're exposed to--even our food is irradiated, processed and packaged in who-knows-what. Even milk contains laboratory produced growth hormones. Tomatoes and corn are now bio-engineered. And we worry about our spit leeching a few trace metals? :wink:

Just don't read Eric Schlosser's <EM>Fast Food Nation</EM>! Now THAT will cause you some sleepless nights! I haven't set foot in MacDonalds or Burger King in two months (since reading it).

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: fiddling_tenor on 2002-06-28 08:44 ]</font>
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dkehoe
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Post by dkehoe »

Sorry, Tom, NOT stepping outdoors is probably more harmfull. Usually, indoor air has much higher concentrations of volatile organic compounds, carbon monoxide, suspended particulate, alergens, etc. I think someone further up in the tread suggested that we're all under a far greater risk by driving - or breathing (oxygen results in free radical formation) but I don't think any of us are going to stop doing either.

Life is full of risks. We can't avoid them all. Concentrate on the important ones.
ysgwd
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Post by ysgwd »

In reading various posts, I see that there is a general high regard for PVC whistles such as Dixon and the Water Weasel.
PVC seems like such a convenient and stable material, but from what I understand, it's rather toxic. http://www.turnertoys.com/PVC_framepage1.htm
Do we want to be sticking this in our mouths? Or, in other words, is there a health risk in playing a PVC whistle?
Micah
P.S. I play a Dixon polymer flute...what's the difference between polymer and PVC?
See http://archive.greenpeace.org/~usa/repo ... dcg03.html
to learn about dioxin and pvc.
Some people have specific chemical sensitivities that cause them to react from contact with plastics, just as others react to certain woods, metals, etc. CPVC is supposed to be chemically stable enough not to release any of its components (please someone correct my verbiage if I should say this differently), but that is not my concern. What I don't like about pvc whistles is that they may be considered relatively disposable because of their low cost and sometimes inferior quality. I don't like the idea of anything made of pvc because of the website I've listed above, and I don't like the idea of cheap whistles in general because of their disposable-ness in our society. I prefer things that are made to be kept. I think a cheap brass whistle is just as bad for the environment as a cheap plastic one is--think of all the energy and resources that went into producing a disposable brass whistle. I know that whistles are not the same thing as all the pvc used in construction, but I am worried about people's cavalier attitude in general about toxins. Some humans are more interested in ecology than accumulating stuff. There, that is my environmentalist rant for this hour. Micah asked about the difference between PVC and polymer. Polymers are defined as compounds composed of one or more large molecules that are formed from repeated units of smaller molecules. PVC is a member of the polymer family. If someone says something is a polymer, perhaps it is in avoidance of saying PVC or another similar plastic?
I own a few Susato whistles (PVC) and I have sold a few that I don't play anymore. They are good whistles as I suppose the Dixon are--I just hope they don't get thrown away....
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Post by WyoBadger »

Recently seen on a bumper sticker:

"Do it today. Tomorrow it might cause cancer."

Tyghress said it. Live on the edge. Cross when the sign says "Don't Walk." Ride on the escalator without using the hand rail. Play your whistle.

Tom (Danger is my middle name) Wilson
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Post by LeeMarsh »

On 2002-06-28 11:18, dkehoe wrote:
... Life is full of risks. ...
And always has been.

PVC may have some dangers, but providing inexpensive forms of indoor plumbing has left us with water in a lot better condition than what existed a century or two ago. Urban or town life 2-300 years ago had its own environmental risks. Remember the victorian gent that put his coat down to allow his lady to step on when crossing the street. He was not protecting her form dirt. His gallant action was to protect her from the animal wastes (solid and liquid) that collected in the mire of the streets. Toxic wastes are not new to this age.

Don't get me wrong, I am against polution. I have lots of environmental concerns, but I also see a need to keep those in perspective by examining the alternatives.

As to discarding whistles, I'm wandering what archeologists in the 41st century are going to think when they find the strange pieces of tubings.
Enjoy Your Music,
Lee Marsh
From Odenton, MD.
Dewhistle
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Post by Dewhistle »

That's it. From now on, I'm making my own whistles out of cheese.
"We took pictures of the native girls, but they weren't developed. But we're going back again in a couple of weeks..."
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Post by burnsbyrne »

On 2002-06-28 12:33, Dewhistle wrote:
That's it. From now on, I'm making my own whistles out of cheese.
Make sure it is pasteurized cheese. That natural stuff has nasty bacteria in it.

Mike
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Post by Dewhistle »

As to discarding whistles, I'm wandering what archeologists in the 41st century are going to think when they find the strange pieces of tubings.
They're gonna say, "Hey, primitive man played the whistle, too! Hey, what's this thing with strings?"

DW; what can this strange device be? when I touch it, it gives forth a sound. It's got wires that vibrate and give music... What can this thing be that I've found?
"We took pictures of the native girls, but they weren't developed. But we're going back again in a couple of weeks..."
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ndjr
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Post by ndjr »

On 2002-06-28 12:20, LeeMarsh wrote:
Remember the victorian gent that put his coat down to allow his lady to step on when crossing the street.
Just a minor point: That famous incident is supposed to have happened in a different age. The "gent" was Sir Walter Raleigh, and the "lady" was Queen Elizabeth I. The story may be apocryphal, as there is no proof it actually happened.
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Neil Dickey
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Post by The Weekenders »

I would disagree with yswsgd only in that who is throwing away cheap whistles? With the exception of ruined fipples, this whole Forum often revolves around ways to salvage, improve and celebrate the cheap whistles.

Also inadvertently stepped on in the argument are people who can't afford fine "whistles to keep." But this is not a slam on ywgsyds, just an observation.

The rant is valid is so many other ways. My awareness of disposable society is particularly exercised by computers and other electronics that we are supposed to throw away, not $5 whistles. We had a big state-of-the-art plastics recycling factory here in Richmond for computer shells etc, but IT BURNED DOWN!! The circuit board metals etc are a big toxic deal too.
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Post by garycrosby »

ndjr, thanks for the information about the lining in aluminum cans - I did not know that and assumed that they were uncoated aluminum. Brass *is* primarily an alloy of copper and zinc as ndjr noted but I do stand by my argument that most brass contains more than trace levels of lead. Lead is added to brass to improve machinability - typical brass is about 1-3% lead. There is a move in the metals industry to cut the levels of lead in brass because of perceived negative health effects. When I mentioned the the mouthpieces of brass instruments where usually plated I mean't instruments that are traditionally made from brass like trumpets and tubs and such. I have often wondered why the mouthpieces on brass whistles weren't similarily plated?

I am hesitant to dive into the dental amalgam debate becuase some people have strong feelings on the issue and I don't want to offend them. A couple of years ago one of my kids needed a filling but I was concerned about the amalgam so I did a *lot* of research (by training I am a researcher). I came to the conclusion that the health risks are overstated. Several countries have actually banned them but, and its a big "but", they have done so as a response to public perception and not as a response to sound scientific evidence that they are unsafe. You'll get a bigger dose of mercury from eating 200 g of swordfish then you will in a year's exposure to an amalgam filling. Oddly enough, the biggest threat from amalgam fillings is remowing them. High speed drills used to remove the fillings produce large numbers of small particles and (possibly) metal vapours. The exposure level from small particles and metal vapour is very high. Also, contrary to popular belief the human body can get rid of mercury - it just does it very slowly.

Getting back to whole whistle toxicity issue. I think that whistle makers should take steps to inform their customers of the toxicity of their products. Many of them have websites and, presumably, they have or could easily obtain information on their product's toxicity - it wouldn't take much effort to post some consumer-friendly information on a website or on the products packaging.
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Post by ChrisA »

On 2002-06-28 12:48, The Weekenders wrote:
I would disagree with yswsgd only in that who is throwing away cheap whistles?
Indeed, I have yet to throw away a whistle, although I have set my 'broken' whistles aside from the 'working' whistles, but I've recently bought some wooden dowling that matches the ID of many cheap whistles. I hope to create a straightening-tool for bent whistles, but we'll have to see how it works.

I also note that there's more metal and plastic in the containers from a the proverberial weekly shopping for a family of four than in... well, a whole lot of whistles... and you'll do more good for the environment by recycling -that- stuff (or being conscious about less wasteful packaging, or both) then by avoiding buying instruments which, while perhaps not built to last, still may last for many years nonetheless.

--Chris
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Post by ndjr »

On 2002-06-27 17:50, ChrisA wrote:
Uhm, the dental amalgam is non-toxic because the silver and the mercury bind to each other tighter than the acids in you can break them apart.
This is not correct. According to Pauling, mercury is considered relatively unreactive. The amalgam forms as metals, e.g. gold, silver, tin, <i><b>dissolve</b></i> in the liquid mercury. Amalgam is a solution, not a compound, and, in any event, how could metals which only exist in the positive valence state ( Au, Ag, Hg ) be expected to form a chemical bond with one another?

Prospectors at one time used mercury to concentrate the fine gold they found in their pans by simply pouring the mercury in and sloshing it about until the gold was dissolved. The gold was recovered by placing the mercury in a distillation apparatus made of iron ( because mercury does not wet iron ). On heating, the more volatile mercury was driven off and condensed for re-use, while the refractory gold, silver, etc., were left behind in the retort. The miner who discribed this process to me suggested it was best to retire a good deal upwind until the process was completed.
If you swallowed drops of un-mixed mercury, it would assuredly not be harmless, nor does it need to occur only in compounds to be harmful... the vapors of liquid mercury were quite harmful to the historic (and immortalized by Lewis Carroll) hatter. It does, however, take a good deal of exposure to damage you.
What you point up here is the difference between acute and chronic exposure. Acute exposure can cause such things as skin irritation, or metal-fume fever if the vapors are inhaled. Chronic exposure -- repeated over long periods of time -- can produce much more serious effects, as you point out.
Mercury is also a cumulative toxin... once it's in you, it doesn't leave, so while you might not be harmed by ingesting, say, a milligram of mercury, you would be eventually if you ingested a milligram annually... (I don't, offhand, know how much it actually takes to cause brain damage).
This isn't quite correct. Mercury is excreted from the body, just at a rather slow rate. If exposure exceeds the excretion rate, then it will accumulate, otherwise not. The brief exposure in the dentist's chair is presumably sufficiently low-level and infrequent that serious effects are avoided and the body can recover. I understand, however, that dentists themselves must be very careful because their exposure is very long-term.
Not to say that organic compounds containing mercury are harmless, either... I strongly recommend against eating locoweed!
According to references I have seen the active ingredient in locoweed isn't mercury, but an alkaloid toxin.
Best regards,

Neil Dickey
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Gary
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Post by Gary »

On 2002-06-28 12:48, The Weekenders wrote:
My awareness of disposable society is particularly exercised by computers and other electronics that we are supposed to throw away, ...
We in the computer industry have a phrase for this;

"Today's technology is tomorrow's doorstop."
On 2002-06-28 13:22, ChrisA wrote:
Indeed, I have yet to throw away a whistle, although I have set my 'broken' whistles aside from the 'working' whistles, but I've recently bought some wooden dowling that matches the ID of many cheap whistles. I hope to create a straightening-tool for bent whistles, but we'll have to see how it works.
--Chris
FWIW...
For removing dents on conical bores, instrument shops us a device that looks like a ball bearing welded onto the end of a metal rod. Pushing this steel device down a bore pushes out dents in brass and keeps it round. Try to find a steel ball bearing of the correct diameter and press it thru with a wood dowel. It might work. :smile:

Gary
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