Modes in ITM

[SteveShaw]

Gillan's Apples (at least the way I play it) is G Lydian, as is the slide The Turnip Jig (aka Paudy Scully's). A good case could also be made for Cronin's Hornpipe as long as you play it with that augmented fourth, which I do.

[hans]

All three of them are fine in G. Gillian's Apples and The Turnip Jig have no C or C#. That would not make them Lydian, they would need to have the raised fourth C# in order to qualify for Lydian. Cronin's Hornpipe as I know it is in G major in part A, but uses both C and C# as well as a D# in part B.

[SteveShaw]

This is where versions matter. Gillan's (note spelling - Gillan was a man!) Apples has no C nats in our version but has that C sharp at the end of both A and B parts. I can't play it on a G harp. I was mistaken about the Turnip Jig (damn these ears of mine ). I've just tried Cronin's again and there's a C sharp in the B part but I'm blowed if I can find a C nat in it. In fact I couldn't play it if there was as I play it in 12th position on a D harp. I learned it that way so that I could play the whole Planxty set (Fisherman's Lilt/Cronin's) on one harmonica. That D sharp you mention, er, gets "eased out" of our version (to a D instead).

[hans]

Yes, version matters! Apparently there is a jig called Gillian's Apples and another called Gillan's Apples, but possibly related. I don't know Gillan's Apples, and my version of Gillian's Apples is different from what's on sessionorg (I loathe to use that site for reference material!). I learned Gillian's Apples froom Geraldine Cotter's Traditional Irish Tin Whistle Tutor.

I'll see if I can find or write out the abc for Cronin's as I know it.

[hans]

Code: Select all

T: Cronin's Hornpipe
R: hornpipe
M: 4/4
K: G
BA|GABd dBde|gage dega|bage dBGA|BAAG AcBA|
GABd dBde|gage dega|bage dBAB|G2GFG2:|
fg|afd^c d2ga |bge^d e2 ga|bgaf gedB|BAAG AcBA|
GABd dBde|gage dega|bage dBAB|G2GFG2:|

as in Irish Traditional Music - Session Tunes

To me that tune is straight G major, with a variation shifting to D major and E minor in the first two bars of part B.

[hans]

Gillan's Apples as published on sessionorg here looks to me to be in A mixolydian, with some raised bottom Gs at the ends.

[benhall.1]

Code: Select all

T: Cronin's Hornpipe
R: hornpipe
M: 4/4
K: G
BA|GABd dBde|gage dega|bage dBGA|BAAG AcBA|
GABd dBde|gage dega|bage dBAB|G2GFG2:|
fg|afd^c d2ga |bge^d e2 ga|bgaf gedB|BAAG AcBA|
GABd dBde|gage dega|bage dBAB|G2GFG2:|

as in Irish Traditional Music - Session Tunes

To me that tune is straight G major, with a variation shifting to D major and E minor in the first two bars of part B.

Spot on. Nothing to do with Lydian.

[SteveShaw]

There seems to be a lot of confusion over names for Gillan's Apples. It's a jig in G (I'd argue with that of course ) which I think has also been called Apples in Winter (more confusion). I learned it off the Totally Traditional Tin Whistles album.

[benhall.1]

... and there I go, not knowing the tune (Gillan's Apples) expecting to look at it and be able to say with confidence that it couldn;t possibly be in Lydian mode ... and I can't ... I think it's at least ambiguous. Strange ending to each part right enough. Is it enough to make it Lydian? Or are those just passing notes in an otherwise straight major tune? And the answer is ... I don't know. Didn't think that would happen ...

[SteveShaw]

Code: Select all

T: Cronin's Hornpipe
R: hornpipe
M: 4/4
K: G
BA|GABd dBde|gage dega|bage dBGA|BAAG AcBA|
GABd dBde|gage dega|bage dBAB|G2GFG2:|
fg|afd^c d2ga |bge^d e2 ga|bgaf gedB|BAAG AcBA|
GABd dBde|gage dega|bage dBAB|G2GFG2:|

as in Irish Traditional Music - Session Tunes

To me that tune is straight G major, with a variation shifting to D major and E minor in the first two bars of part B.

Spot on. Nothing to do with Lydian.

Well the B part is Lydian the way I play it. No C nats and no D sharps. I agree that the A part is G major unadorned. Shoot!

[hans]

@Steve re: Cronin's Hornpipe
Even if you leave out the Cnat in part B, and play a D instead of D# (the D# is just a dramatic device, to lead to the E), you still have the tune returning to a straight G major, repeating itself as in part A. And, as I said, part B bar 1 is a variation in D major (C# leading to D), bar 2 in E minor. No evidence or need for G Lydian anywhere.

@Ben
Do you refer to Gillan's Apples as seen on sessionorg? That tune is firmly rooted in A, not G Lydian, either A mix with some sharp bottom sevenths, or A with some flat top seventh. I tend to think A mix, with added drama at the bottom.

[benhall.1]

@Steve re: Cronin's Hornpipe
Even if you leave out the Cnat in part B, and play a D instead of D# (the D# is just a dramatic device, to lead to the E), you still have the tune returning to a straight G major, repeating itself as in part A. And, as I said, part B bar 1 is a variation in D major (C# leading to D), bar 2 in E minor. No evidence or need for G Lydian anywhere.

@Ben
Do you refer to Gillan's Apples as seen on sessionorg? That tune is firmly rooted in A, not G Lydian, either A mix with some sharp bottom sevenths, or A with some flat top seventh. I tend to think A mix, with added drama at the bottom.

I agree with you on Cronin's, but not on Gillan's Apples, about which I still can't make my mind up. Firstly, I would say that the tune as transcribed on thesession.org is firmly in D, not A, but I was making allowances for the fact that Steve obviously plays it a fifth lower (or a fourth higher, however you want to think about it - basically with one less sharp in the key signature), so, when he suggested that it was in G lydian, I was - sort of - agreeing with him by not mentioning the key signature itself and mentally adding in "D" when I said that I wasn't sure whether it was lydian or not. All that being the case, whether it's straight major with an inflection, or lydian, there is no doubt in my mind that the tonal centre is D, not A, as it is transcribed on thesession.org.

Gosh, this stuff get's tricky when you start having different perceptions on the same thing, doesn't it?

[SteveShaw]

@Steve re: Cronin's Hornpipe
Even if you leave out the Cnat in part B, and play a D instead of D# (the D# is just a dramatic device, to lead to the E), you still have the tune returning to a straight G major, repeating itself as in part A. And, as I said, part B bar 1 is a variation in D major (C# leading to D), bar 2 in E minor. No evidence or need for G Lydian anywhere.

Well this is it with a lot of Irish tunes. If you dissect them you find that, say, a four-bar section could be considered to be one mode and the next four bar section could be in a different mode. Certainly some tunes have A and B parts you could consider to be in different modes. With my version of Cronin's, in the B part I play one C sharp in the first phrase which does not appear again in the rest of the tune. The same section of tune contains only the notes of the G Lydian scale (in my version) - so no C nats and no D sharp. I think the single C sharp is enough to give that section a Lydian feel whether you regard the B part or the whole tune Lydian or not.

@Ben
Do you refer to Gillan's Apples as seen on sessionorg? That tune is firmly rooted in A, not G Lydian, either A mix with some sharp bottom sevenths, or A with some flat top seventh. I tend to think A mix, with added drama at the bottom.

I think we're still confused as to the identity of this tune.

[SteveShaw]

I just remembered. "My" Gillan's Apples is the second tune of track 1 on Chieftains 2, if that helps to identify it. It appears to have G as tonic, so I don't know what all this A and D talk is about. Whatever else it is it is in a major-sounding mode and is not Mixolydian. Unfortunately I can't listen to it as my vinyl facilities are temporarily dead. Perhaps someone could confirm or deny the tonality and the presence or absence of that C sharp at the end of each part...

Here be it on the notoriously-wonderful The Session tune base. Click on sheet music and observe the wonderful C sharps....

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1855

[benhall.1]

Ah, that one. Yes, different tune. And it isn't in Lydian at all. It's in plain old G major, with a (very common) modulation to D major for the cadences. It's not even a modal tune, properly speaking.