Chiff and Fipple Forums

Mr.Gumby wrote:

I guess I'll never be "hard core" No way my eyebrows will be that luxuriant. Must be something in the Irish air...

Best wishes.

Steve

As a side note on the subject of the general notion of what is Celtic...for my part, I have heard ONE band in my life that I thought used non-trad instruments tastefully in a trad setting, and that band is Altan. I think here of the percussion and didgeridoo in "'si Do Mhaimeo Í" or the synthesizer and electric piano backing in "Tuirse Mo Chroi". And what really helps make it tasteful is that they did this with very few songs and therefore to great effect, unlike some bands I could name who larded every track with Enya-esque synth pads in order to appeal to newbies who saw Irish music as just one more style of "World Beat".

Not their fault since that's the way a lot of it was marketed, and the general notion of any genre of music is usually whatever the marketers spoon-feed us. That's why I prefer to avoid the term "Celtic" and use the country of origin when naming what a song or tune is. Anyway, good on ya Brus for wanting to seek out the real thing!

Not sure where that came from


But going back to the 'hard core' discussion: I was asked for Joe Bane tracks and some other East Clare guys. I suppose this is about whistles so I'll leave out the flutes and concertinas, fiddles etc. But there's this: Greengowned Lass - Joe Bane

Brus wrote:hard-core

Michael Anderson wrote:synthesizer

I get nervous!!

Hmm, well just sort of a general response to ytliek's comment "Hard-core, at least around here often refers to something completely opposite to the Real Thing or Pure Drop and usually connects with what is referred to as that general notion of celtic stuff. Maybe even so far as the "fringe"."

I think I need more sleep; I should have prefaced it by quoting ytliek, then maybe a general comment on what is "generally thought Celtic" and why it's not the real thing, THEN a concluding thought on the specifics of how I find Altan to be the real thing in spite of sometimes using what was becoming classic "generally thought of as Celtic" instrumentation on some tunes...but I botched it! Note to self: more information to introduce your post first.

I'll do one more, probably final, clip to this thread. John Killourhy playing. John and his brother Paddy had a store of unusual and old local tunes and here he is playing two that not everybody would expect to hear in Clare maybe. This sort of tune was not unusual among that generation of players and the (house) dances they played for.

The Killourhys were lifelong friends of the Russells and lived a few mile away from that other set of batchelor brothers and they shared a good bit of music and repertoire. There were a few dark looks thrown when Micho went out into the world playing 'The Piper's Chair' which the Killourhys considered one of their 'own' tunes as they had it first, learned from a neighbour.

The Piper's Chair is a piece of rock in a field close to the cliff edge, looking towards Doolin Pier and the Aran Islands beyond. Micho always maintained it was used by pipers who played for dances in that field but he may have been seeing the fairies again. Whatever the way, it's actually a very comfortable seat. Lovely tune too.



FWIW, John was one of the rare players who had, and favoured, a wooden whistle. I have never been fully convinced it was a lucky choice but that was his way. He used to carry around an old brochure from a German company that made wooden whistles in Dresden during the 1920s and 30s. Whenever he thought you might have a bit of German, he'd ask, insistently, if you could make enquiries for him as the company didn't reply to his letters.

At the time of the recording John was closing in on his 90th birthday.

Fitzpatrick's - John Killourhy


Anyone with any thoughts on the whole 'hard core' traditional Irish thing? I realise it's easier to talk about the latest acquisition than it is to put words to how you react to music but does anyone take anything away from this? Should I bother at all with putting this stuff up?

Mr.Gumby wrote: Should I bother at all with putting this stuff up?

I may not be the only one lurking so far as the discussion is concerned but appreciating the clips.

That 'ornamenting' the long notes at the end of phrases with breath pressure (I think) in the last clip is not something that I recall reading much about.

david_h wrote:

Mr.Gumby wrote: Should I bother at all with putting this stuff up?

I may not be the only one lurking so far as the discussion is concerned but appreciating the clips.

Not exactly a lurker, since I started the thread, but this is all good stuff I probably wouldn't have found on my own.

Glad to hear that this is useful. I get interesting bits and little insights listening to this sort of stuff (or from being in the company of people like that, when they were still around) but I realise it's not for all. As long as a few of you find something worthwhile it's OK.

Not exactly a lurker, since I started the thread, but this is all good stuff I probably wouldn't have found on my own.

Yes, you can take the blame and no, you wouldn't have found any of it.

Here's one you might have found although the EP record it was on is rare enough, one to lighten the mood a bit after all the old Claremen. I admit to having an occasional weakness for silly hornpipes. It's Michael Dwyer with Kevin Taylor on the piano : The Sunshine hornpipe - Michael Dwyer

At the time of the recording John was closing in on his 90th birthday.

Fitzpatrick's - John Killourhy


Anyone with any thoughts on the whole 'hard core' traditional Irish thing? I realise it's easier to talk about the latest acquisition than it is to put words to how you react to music but does anyone take anything away from this? Should I bother at all with putting this stuff up?

Well, I for one appreciate you posting the photos and the sound clips. You cleared up the Real Raw Pure Drop for me (or others) and I'd encourage more postings. I'm not as bold to ask for your entire personal library, as has been requested, but, that would be a real treasure that I can only imagine.

And yeah, for the wooden whistle...

Thanks Mr.G! The tracks are much appreciated. I haven't listened to them all yet, as my wife is currently addicted to teaching herself some tunes on the concertina (Joe Bane's Barndance and the Gypsy Princess), but I at least had a minute to hear the Joe Bane track, which as expected is very nice.

I'll make a feeble attempt at compensating for my veering-wildly-off-topic post by saying that I also really appreciated your input Mr. Gumby!

I have another track here of Mickey Cleary's. I put it up because it is such an intrinsically whistle player's take on two tunes. The tune moves very lightly up and down through the octaves for emphasis, a trait that was shared by a number of local players like JC Talty, Willie Clancy etc. Cleary was a very shy man who would only play at home or in the company of friends. When I had just settled in West Clare I often cycled past his house and we'd chat if he happened to be working outside. Neither of us ever mentioned playing music during these conversations. He learned his whistle and fluteplaying from Josie Hayes up in Shanaway. He favoured the old C whistles and at some point attempts were made by Kitty Hayes and myself to get some tunes with him, at that point he wasn't well and the meeting was postponed until he would be feeling better. It was not to be however.
The recording was made on New Year's day 1974 in the Crosses of Annagh.


Pigeon on the Gate - Toss the Feathers_ Mickey Cleary

That Micky Cleary recording was beautiful Peter. Thanks for that. Both tunes gorgeous, but I really liked that rendition of Toss the Feathers. Lovely, old-fashioned, flowing style. The ornaments were very precisely timed, with a subtly different timing from what you would commonly hear nowadays. It's where he put the little notes that counted, for me at least, in that.

So "hard core" seems to be about obscure players from a previous generation?

For sure some could define "genuine Irish music" as being the music played in remote rural places by people who never/rarely travelled outwith their locality, music learned from earlier local players.

A different angle is the modern players who have learned their music off of early recordings of Irish musicians. This music is more "genuine" in that it is the music of an earlier generation, oftentimes the music of people who came to their musical maturity in the late 19th century or beginning of the 20th, a generation or two earlier than the most elderly players still playing. This early recorded music is less "genuine" because the players have travelled (in most cases) to large urban areas such as New York and it is impossible to say to what extent the music reflects the music played in the musician's native locality in Ireland.

At a festival I was thrown into a situation of playing with some musicians I'd never played with, playing for some Irish dancers. The lead musician would call off a tune, but everyone (except me) knew that the title referred to a medley, these medleys evidently all coming from old Michael Coleman recordings. I had heard many of these old recordings but it had never occurred to me to memorise all of the sets exactly as played and have them be the basis of my repertoire.