Looking for New Whistle

[pancelticpiper]

Rather than go off on a quest for the perfect whistle, it may be better to accept the whistle for what it is... Meet the instrument on its own terms rather than impose an aesthetic that may be foreign to it.

Amen!

I am amused by people's attempts to make a whistle play more like a Recorder or more like a Boehm Flute or indeed anything other than a whistle. These people are nearly always from such backgrounds and can't seem to help themselves from trying to impose notions from those foreign instruments upon the 'lowly whistle".

[Mr.Gumby]

To those of you who say that a good musician is so important that even a typically 'bad' whistle will sound good when played by an experienced player, would you say that then there is no such thing as a really bad whistle as long as it's in tune with itself? Personal preferences on volume and tone aside, are they all pretty much equally good to play? Or are there still noticeably 'good' and 'bad' whistles, the latter of which shouldn't really be played?

This was sort of a hot topic in the earlier days of this forum, say fifteen years ago. There was an atmosphere here then that vehemently dictated that all cheap mass produced whistles were unplayable and most, if not all, 'designer made' expensive whistles were by definition superior. Things have, thankfully, mellowed a bit since and these discussions have lost the vehemence they used to have. In those days I sometimes went out to the shops to buy an off the shelf mass produced whistle and record it to show they were serviceable instruments.

But it is important who 'drives' the instrument, undoubtedly. An old example I shouldn't perhaps go back to is the 'absolutely unplayable' one Jerry Freeman sent to me when he just started his business. I suppose it was his way of trying to show me that 'tweaking' whistles was a necessity, a premiss I had doubted publicly here. Let's say, to me it was by far the nicest and playable whistle included in that batch.

There was also a Sweetone C that I declared the most awful whistle I ever came across (there was some hyperbole involved but I did think it was an unpleasant intrument) that I sent to a member of the forum who thought it was lovely and made a recording of it that made it sound OK.

Who drives the whistle has a large influence on the tone and tuning that it will produce. And that in turn will influence the eye of the beholder. What I am saying, rambling at eight in the morning and before coffee, is that there will be the unplayable ones, the real stinkers, and probably more likely the ones that you can play but don't want to but we may or may not always agree exactly which ones they are.

[david_h]

... as long as it's in tune with itself ...

Is that a straightforward concept for a whistle ?

[Peter Duggan]

I am amused by people's attempts to make a whistle play more like a Recorder or more like a Boehm Flute or indeed anything other than a whistle. These people are nearly always from such backgrounds and can't seem to help themselves from trying to impose notions from those foreign instruments upon the 'lowly whistle".

What about low Ds, Richard? You play them a lot, but they're hardly 'lowly' (no pun!) whistles with the good ones frequently having (even requiring) some of these supra-whistle characteristics you're not liking in the regular high ones. For example Reyburns, which you've described in quick succession as having 'a unique tone, in my opinion the most interesting tone of any whistle out there', 'when I want that magic tone there it is', 'more like the offspring of an Overton and a Native American Flute' and 'NAF in a fog'.

For sure, I too like 'traditional' whistles and think tweaking-as-necessity something of an overrated cult, but was also playing a range of colour from pure Feadog Mk1 and breathy Shaw to more recorder-like Susato twenty years before I had any aluminium high whistles. It's horses for courses as suggested by Steve Bliven above, with the additional caveat from my perspective that it's not even all about Irish music. For me also Scottish (obviously!), with some European, American etc., for others perhaps Kwela or other things.

So, while appreciating the traditional high whistle for what it is and understanding why it's typically still the gold standard for its long-established use in Irish trad, I can't see further experimentation with high whistles as any more 'foreign' than the development of the low whistle. Nobody *has* to play expensive and/or untraditional whistles, but they're there for those with the use/desire for them.

Might add that I'm now completely immune to so-called WHOAD. I sold all my Shaws, old Generations (still have Feadog Mk1, Killarney, solid brass and trad Dixons, Bracker narrow-bore etc.), original Bernard Overtons (superseded by my clearer, more reliable Brackers), Chieftains (which just didn't do it for me) and others I've given a briefer go (e.g. Alba and Impempe high Ds). I have a reliable, well-matched set of Brackers from low D to high E augmented by a range of mostly inexpensive alternatives at Bb and above, and just don't need more. If I ever buy more whistles now it'll be because I've tried something and really liked it, not because I 'need' another pig in a poke!

[pancelticpiper]

Fair enough, but I will say that I didn't start out with an NAF tonal ideal in mind and then search for a whistle that sounded like that. I've had a number of Low Ds pass through my hands, the Reyburn merely one of many. I spend more time on my Goldie, which has more or less the classic "low whistle tone" established by Overton. Timbre for me is down the list of the things I look for, behind efficiency, response, and tuning.

What comes to mind are Burkes, with a very pure tone, rotating Hole 6 so that it can be offset, and thumb-hole, all (it seems to me) to cater to those coming from Recorder or Boehm flute. For sure people with those backgrounds usually love Burkes.

The Low Whistles that feel more "native" or "traditional" to me are whistles in the classic Overton mould, though of course Low Whistles as a species aren't "native" or "traditional" in the least. Overtons, after all, are more or less Organ pipes with holes drilled in them.

I've never cared for Overton high whistles (or their ilk) or, really, any high whistles that strayed much from the classic Generation path.

[pancelticpiper]

... as long as it's in tune with itself ...

Is that a straightforward concept for a whistle ?

For me it is... needle straight up.

[Peter Duggan]

What comes to mind are Burkes, with a very pure tone, rotating Hole 6 so that it can be offset, and thumb-hole, all (it seems to me) to cater to those coming from Recorder or Boehm flute. For sure people with those backgrounds usually love Burkes.

But you've got a fair collection of smaller (maybe mid-sized), six-holed Burkes, haven't you?

I've never cared for Overton high whistles (or their ilk) or, really, any high whistles that strayed much from the classic Generation path.

I've never had, or tried, an Overton or Overton-type (unless you count my former Chieftains) above 'mezzo' A. The Bernard Overtons I had were low D, G and A, and there really wasn't much choice in lower whistles when I got them. I also once had a Howard low D that looked somewhat like a giant Generation with plain brass tube and removable plastic mouthpiece, but its potentially more 'trad' qualities were undermined by the awkward combination of being both weedy and sharp in the upper octave.

[Spielorjh]

Interesting - all the Gens I've played (briefly, when I'd been playing two months) sounded fine to me. I got lucky with my first whistle and my later acquisitions have been geared towards different porpoises - I wanted a whistle I could hear in a session, I wanted a wooden whistle to see what it was like, I wanted a Bb and a low G, etc. It's more by accident that my wooden Sweetheart (IrishFluteStore claimed African Blackwood - I'm thinking it might actually be something else) took over as my primary whistle from the Potter I got the first time.

The Clarkes (not sure which ones they are - rolled sheet metal with what felt like a balsa fipple plug) were unplayable without hyperventilating, but I'm sure that was just me.

Then again, I've been playing for less than a year and I haven't managed to play a good short roll yet, so take all this as you want.

[Tyler DelGregg]

I started on the Highland pipes back in the 1970s. I bought all kind of records back then, records that had any kind of Celtic connections. What struck me early on was how an instrument that looked like a toy with a little red mouthpiece could produce such beautiful sounds. Then one day, I stopped playing the pipes for a number of reasons, and started playing the recorder because it had eight holes like the pipes. There was no way I was going from an eight holer to a 6 holer. For years however, I wanted my recorders to sound like the whistle, until I put the recorder down and bought my first whistle. I too, went through the whistle buying manic phase until I finally settled down and kept just a few "cheapies"....Clarke, Generation, and Waltons. I appreciate their traditional sound. My expensive whistles are all Reyburns, all of which I purchased recently. As others here have said, the Reyburn has a hybrid sound that to me, is exquisite. But it still feels good to reach for my breathy Clarke C, the black one with the gaudy gold diamonds. On most days though, I reach for the Reyburns.
This really is a fascinating road trip.

[david_h]

... as long as it's in tune with itself ...

Is that a straightforward concept for a whistle ?

For me it is... needle straight up.

I nearly added a rider anticipating your response! How many are like that - with a regular change in volume from note to note within each octave - as bought? And if not are they 'reject' whistles?

My Feadog Mk1 head has spent some of its life on its original tube and some on the tube from a Generation of about the same age. Some tunes sound better to me on one, some on the other. I could probably carve/tape a Generation tube to be 'needle straight up' with an even volume profile - but that would be tweaking.

[pancelticpiper]

Want small holes? Goodbye half holing.

Though not made with such purpose in mind, this video I just made demonstrating the Alba Bass A shows what I was trying to describe, half-holing by cracking open the side of the hole towards the bell-end of the whistle. Seems to me that this technique isn't affected as much by the hole size (though it's true in this case that the hole I'm half-holing is the biggest one on that whistle)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJm6BQ-Qxcg

[pancelticpiper]

But you've got a fair collection of smaller (maybe mid-sized), six-holed Burkes, haven't you?

Yes I had at one time quite a few Burkes. The herd has been thinned somewhat, but still I have Burkes in mezzo G, F, and Eb.

The most recent to go was the mezzo A, which just didn't play as well as my FrankenGen A.

Still, I didn't gravitate towards Burkes because of their tone, or rotating Hole 6, or thumb-hole, but because they played solidly and in tune, which is all that's required for Studio work.

I recognise a dichotomy between whistles I use for trad playing, and ones I use for non-trad playing, in some cases.

For trad playing I want superb efficiency and lightness of the 2nd octave. For studio work a solid tone throughout the gamut, and needle straight up, are what's needed.

[pancelticpiper]

To those of you who say that a good musician is so important that even a typically 'bad' whistle will sound good when played by an experienced player...

I suppose I wasn't clear, because speaking for myself I wasn't intending to say that.

I'm saying that my concept of what constitutes "good" and "bad" whistles is rooted in the ITM world of the 1960s and 1970s, and is different from, for example, the concept of people coming to whistle from outside the ITM world, say people coming from orchestral flute, or Baroque recorder, or jazz/pop sax, or what have you. My tastes may also be different from the current ITM world, because people in Ireland coming to the whistle now have an enormous number of makers to choose from.

I don't think my tastes are that much off the mark though. This was demonstrated recently when I attended the annual convention of the National Flute Association.

A guy had a booth there who made very expensive whistles, made of African Blackwood and Sterling Silver. He said I could try one. I played it a bit. I didn't care for it at all. It played like so many of the American-made Neo Whistles I've encountered since the 1980s, big bore, super-loud low octave, and very stiff clumsy 2nd octave.

He asked "what do you think?"

I said "the 2nd octave is a bit stiff for me."

He said "Mary Bergin told me the same thing."

He obviously isn't making whistles for the likes of Mary Bergin, or even the likes of me. He's making them the way he does for a reason; there must be customers, customers with money, who want whistles that don't play like old-school Irish whistles.

You might call his $700 blackwood & silver whistles "good" and a $10 Generation "bad".

I would do just the opposite.

[DaveL]

... as long as it's in tune with itself ...

Is that a straightforward concept for a whistle ?

For me it is... needle straight up.

Please excuse the newbie question, but I had assumed that whistles were tuned to Just Intonation as I understood that ITM was based around that tuning.
Are some whistles tuned to an ET scale then?
Or does the effect of adjusting blowing make that question irrelevant?
Many thanks
Dave

[nicx66]

Another option would be to repair your original clarke celtic. Depending on the condition, it may be a relatively simple fix. This is assuming the plastic mouthpiece is in tact. If you could describe the damage? I have never had much luck posting pictures here.