Thumb hole on Burke whistles? Any opinions?

[pancelticpiper]

Well said Hans. It's why they're 'philosophical' reasons rather than practical reasons. (The great thing about philosophy is that there's no "wrong answer".)

In practice, as I admitted, the thumbhole is benign, doing no harm, and has the potential to do good.

In 35 years of playing Irish flute I never used the Cnat key for playing C in the low register. I only used it for high C, in exactly the same way (and in the same tunes) that I use the high C key on the uilleann chanter. (The difference is that on the uilleann chanter high C cannot be crossfingered, and the key is in fact necessary.)

Having the ability to play Cnat with its own hole, and the bonus of giving more venting for C#, are clear advantages.

Thing is, if traditional instruments were designed from the standpoint of chromatic practicality they wouldn't exist at all, and everybody would play Boehm flutes. The traditional Irish whistle, in its traditional form, is ideally suited for the performance of Irish traditional whistle music, and the music cannot be performed as suitably on any other instrument. It's that strange symbiosis that exists in various traditions between instruments and performance practice and musical style: uilleann pipe music cannot be adequately played on any other instrument; Bulgarian kaval music cannot be adequately played on any other instrument; and so forth.

The limitations of the instruments aren't 'limitations' in the sense of harming musical potential, rather, they limit the ability of the performer to stray outside the parameters of traditional style.

Tomas O Canainn says it far better than I

"It is to be expected that the instruments which have carried the tradition for many generations will have left their mark on it... it is possible to identify certain patterns in the music which are attributable to particular instruments.

... some of the features (of uilleann piping style) stem directly from what might be considered defects of the instrument.

It seems that this goal (playing in a traditional style) may only be attained by traditional means, implying the use of traditional instruments exclusively."

This all means, more or less, that attempts to 'improve' traditional instruments cannot make these instruments better vehicles for the music traditionally played upon them.

[retired]

"This all means, more or less, that attempts to 'improve' traditional instruments cannot make these instruments better vehicles for the music traditionally played upon them."
"cannot' ----- ? Richard - I hope we can agree to disagree on this one - you're basically saying there can be no more progress - no improvement - and the one constant in the universe is change - On a slow air lingering on C nat with the thumb hole is unsurpassable - you might get close with half-holing or cross fingering, but you'll never beat it ! (oh boy - I'm in trouble now!)

[Mr.Gumby]

I think I am basically in the same camp as Richard. Certain instruments have a particular character that makes them what they are. I keep being surprised by people on these forums who come on to proclaim their eternal love for the whistle (usually as rank beginners) only to commence proposing and advocating changes to the instrument that will alter the essence of it's character. Be it the volume, the voicing or the notes available. They seem to love the idea of the whistle but apparently not the reality of playing it as it is, warts and all.

On a slow air lingering on C cnat with the thumb hole is unsurpassable -

Is one prime example of this attitude. Some expert players of slow airs, especially those coming from the pipes maybe (although I can imagine a fiddler thinking along the same lines) would argue the beauty of the c natural in Irish slow airs comes from the way the player uses it's tone and intonation to best effect. A thumb hole (or alternatively a key) will definitely give you a brighter tone (which would be preferable if your aesthetic is founded in Western art music). But it will also so leave you with a bland note , usually equal tempered to boot, that will stand out like a sore thumb, to those whose aesthetic is grounded in traditional music.

[pancelticpiper]

On a slow air lingering on C nat with the thumb hole is unsurpassable

There we will just have to disagree!

That's the entire goal of the Boehm flute: each note having its own hole of exactly the perfect size and in exactly the perfect spot so that each note sounds the same, that is, homogeneity of timbre and volume. Orchestral musicians spend countless hours developing their embouchure on their clarinet or oboe or flute to make the entire gamut as homogeneous as possible.

It's the very thing about the uilleann pipes that legit musicians (sorry Gumby) marvel at: each note has its very own quite specific timbre, volume, and associated technique.

C natural is perhaps the most characteristic note on the pipes, and its special timbre and the unique way pipers bend that note are byproducts of it being crossfingered.

I, and generations of players before me, do C natural on the whistle and flute in the same way as it's done on the pipes. The crossfingering gives it a special timbre, allows a unique-sounding bend up to the note, and has maximum facility for ornamentation.

Maybe I need to make a little YouTube video of all that stuff... words don't suffice.

BTW this issue isn't only a trad Irish one! Exactly the same thing comes up with people playing Baroque music on modern Boehm flutes:

"On the Baroque traverso, you have six tone holes for the diatonic notes of the D-major scale and one key for Eb / D#... these resonate in a way which the other notes of the Baroque flute do not. Chromatic notes are obtained through "forked" or cross-fingerings which involve closing additional tone holes below the open hole for the note to flatten the note by approximately a semitone. The quality of the notes produced in this way are "shaded" or "veiled"... These give each key a characteristic and unique sound on the Baroque flute, which composers used to exploit to good effect- an effect, sadly, completely and utterly lost on the modern, equally-tempered Boehm-system flute."

The prime example is the Bach piece that starts with the flute playing the marvelous crossfingered veiled F natural in the 2nd octave; on a Boehm flute this note of course sounds exactly the same as every other note on the Boehm flute.

Here's an example, a Bach piece in G minor, meaning crossfingered Fnats, Cnats, and B flats. The flute has a key for E flat, the only mechanized help you get. It's quite astounding the facility good Baroque fluteplayers have with crossfingerings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoU90_jTniw

This music is far easier to play on a Boehm flute but doesn't have the same sound.

[retired]

Well the last time this topic came up it went for 7 pages. For me the bottom line is I personally like having one on my low D. To each their own - no problem. But hey, I'm also left handed !

[MadmanWithaWhistle]

"On the Baroque traverso, you have six tone holes for the diatonic notes of the D-major scale and one key for Eb / D#... these resonate in a way which the other notes of the Baroque flute do not. Chromatic notes are obtained through "forked" or cross-fingerings which involve closing additional tone holes below the open hole for the note to flatten the note by approximately a semitone. The quality of the notes produced in this way are "shaded" or "veiled"... These give each key a characteristic and unique sound on the Baroque flute, which composers used to exploit to good effect- an effect, sadly, completely and utterly lost on the modern, equally-tempered Boehm-system flute.".

Couldn't agree more. On my civil war-era flute, I never use the Cnat key except for the upper octave.

[MadmanWithaWhistle]

Here's the Harlem Nocturne arrangement for the irish flute. All I really did was transpose it to a slightly more comfortable pitch. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B31NuO ... sp=sharing

[MTGuru]

Here's the Harlem Nocturne arrangement for the irish flute. All I really did was transpose it to a slightly more comfortable pitch. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B31NuO ... sp=sharing

[jim stone]

'The great thing about philosophy is that there's no "wrong answer"'. I like that. In my experience, the interesting thing about philosophy is that all the answers lead to horrible difficulties, but Panceltic piper is a real philosopher and has said something genuinely philosophical.

About thumbholes, it is nowhere written that, if you have one, you must use it always. Use the crossfingered note to shade and express, if you wish; use the thumbhole at speed to simplify fingerings. Or not.

[highwood]

'The great thing about philosophy is that there's no "wrong answer"'. I like that. In my experience, the interesting thing about philosophy is that all the answers lead to horrible difficulties, but Panceltic piper is a real philosopher and has said something genuinely philosophical.

There are wrong answers.

There are stupid questions.

Just saying...



And of course:
There is usually more than one right answer.

...or should that be 'correct answer'

[Wanderer]

About thumbholes, it is nowhere written that, if you have one, you must use it always. Use the crossfingered note to shade and express, if you wish; use the thumbhole at speed to simplify fingerings. Or not.

I've owned several whistles with c-nat thumbholes--all of them acquired secondhand. I've always taped it up. I just don't get on with it.

[Ben Steen]

I've owned 4 Burke whistles though at the moment I don't have a single one. I should hasten to add I've enjoyed playing all four of them; excellent whistles. My Viper Low D I gave to a flute player/multi-instrumentalist who currently prefers down-blown flutes to side-blown. Last session I loaned out the high C. The G whistle I'm still considering how to replace (it was also nicked from my truck {see my previous post}). And the high D, w/Cnat thumbhole, I sold despite the fact it's a fine instrument.

By coincidence this past weekend I was dog/house/cat sitting for the person to whom I sold the so-called thumbhole C natural Burke. So I played it once again & it seemed fairly easy to vary between various fingerings.

Unfortunately I didn't try the tape, yet. Maybe next time.

[ickabod]

I just ordered two Burke whistles. I did get the Cnat holes. Not because I fall heavily on one side or the other in the debate.

I looked at it the same way that rednecks look at guns...

IMO: I would rather have it and not need it as opposed to need it and not have it. I thought, I had the few extra bucks, why not? If it don’t work out, I can reach for the tape.

[R Small]

I like the thumbhole. But then I'm not a hardcore traditionalist. ITM makes up probably about half of what I like to play on the whistle. The rest is old-timey, appalachian, bluegrass, etc. Also some jazz and blues. The thumbhole really comes in handy in some of these other styles of music.

[brewerpaul]

One potential problem I could see with a thumb hole is that once you really get used to it on your D whistle, you might have a hard time playing whistles that don't have the hole.