Confusion on Cuts

[david_h]

While I'm getting tired of defending Grey Larsen when I don't always agree with him and don't normally use his 'recommended cut fingerings', he does at least say: <snip>

One of my strongest impressions of Larsen's book is that even when he recommends one way of doing something above others he always includes a caveat such as the one Peter quotes. It is part of his 'scholarly' approach and can make quotes of his 'instructions' out of context misleading.

From somewhere, an Irish source I think (but maybe I misread it), I initially had a habit of cutting with the bottom finger. It doesn't work too well but, sure enough, somewhere in his book, Larsen says it may be useful if a softer effect is required.

[Peter Duggan]

Like Mike I would be a bit suspicious about the idea of starting a cut in mid air and describing landing on a note as a 'cut'. Surely, you can do it by going into it tonguing the note but in reality I am not sure how many players whose music I admire would actually go about things that way.

But 1. you're not starting it in mid air if you're using it to separate two notes of the same pitch, and 2. there's no need to tongue it even when you are (ie moving from one note to another).

Mike (and Peter as well), you are really overthinking this, just listen to how something is played and imitate that as best you can. Seeking validation in writers like GL is not the way to go.

As stated before, I was 'only trying to demonstrate to Mike that it doesn't have to be his way'...

Also noting that even Mr.Gumby's now linking to the written word!

I think you missed my point altogether.

So I don't think that's fair...

Nothing against reading, it broadens the mind. Reading Pat Mitchell, who is one of the closest and most detailed listeners you'll ever meet in this music, may (or may not as the case may be) set your synapses working. There a few thoughts and ideas there that may help one develop their own thinking about these matters. What I don't think as helpful is turning this sort of discussion into some sort of an academic exercise, footnotes and all. The answer to the sort of questions we're discussing here lies in the music of the great stylists, the written word can be helpful when it's descriptive, it becomes a problem when taken (or used) as being prescriptive.

Because there's precious little difference between me quoting Larsen and you pointing to Mitchell when they're both interesting (on which note, thanks for the links!) and neither replaces listening, doing and thinking for yourself. On which note, this has surely long since gone past 'storm in a tea cup' proportions when we have so much common ground, and my only reason for returning to it yet again is (nothing to do with the bl**dy cuts!) frustration at continued misunderstandings.

[Mr.Gumby]

Because there's precious little difference between me quoting Larsen and you pointing to Mitchell

Pointing to Mitchell was a different device than the quotes riddling the thread. I didn't use Pat's writing to supply a foundation to the points I was making. I merely pointed to the article because it's a good read and may challenge some of you into thinking about a few of the issues he raises.

And with regards to the discussion as a whole, I maintain the confusion all stems from overthinking the whole issue. As I said, there is a near infinite range of variables depending on from which direction you approach a note, what effect you're trying to achieve etc etc. When you listen to a good player playing and copy what you hear, things will fall into place. When you start theorising, confusion abounds.

But 1. you're not starting it in mid air if you're using it to separate two notes of the same pitch, and 2. there's no need to tongue it even when you are (ie moving from one note to another).

Is a good example of that. In my mind we haven't specifically been talking about a cut to separate notes. I did at some point refer to cutting a B at some point and specifically when coming from d' (which is a subject that led to a similar confusion in an earlier discussion when someone asked how to cut B, coming from d'). In my mind you won't be able to cut the B before you have actually put the finger down. Some won't agree but we can discuss these things until the cows have come home and gone out again but it really doesn't matter. When you're playing things usually fall into place without thinking.
We all get by as best we can. If you find your way of doing it that is sympathetic to the music, then all's well as far as I am concerned.