Myths and Logic of Shaolin Kung Fu

[Tyler]

Wow, djm, I never knew that about you; that's really neat! Thanks for sharing and having the patience to explain!

[Flyingcursor]

With all these experts on the board maybe someone can clarify the word "Ninja". It seems that every young buck who thinks he's tough claims to know "Kung Fu" and is a "Ninja". We've already seen how "Kung Fu" is properly used.

My understanding is that Ninja means someone who is stealthy. Weren't ninjas a kind of spy in Japan?

[Henke]

With all these experts on the board maybe someone can clarify the word "Ninja". It seems that every young buck who thinks he's tough claims to know "Kung Fu" and is a "Ninja". We've already seen how "Kung Fu" is properly used.

My understanding is that Ninja means someone who is stealthy. Weren't ninjas a kind of spy in Japan?

Ninjas were primarily mercenaries, rebells, guerilla warriors etc. in feudalism Japan. They have absolutely nothing to do with Kung Fu (in the martial art sense of the word). They were often sort of like todays crime syndicates, or guerillas. They worked and lived in clans who often battled the armies of the feudal lords (samuraj warriors). They were skilled warriors, relying on stealth, surprise attacks and guerilla warfare, which made them the prime fear of the samurajs. There was a saying among the Ninjas, if someone did good in a battle, he "fought like 20 samurajs", which was not a huge exaguration. Eventually, some smart land lord (maybe even the Shôgun, can't remember) came up with the idea to hire ninjas as body guards and spies and make them citizens, the fellow who came up with the idea benefited hugely from it.
There are Ninja arts still being practiced today. The one often considered to be the most true Ninja art is called Ninpo Taijutsu. They practice regular kicking, punching, grappling, throwing (opponents), pressure points and all other stuff you need for unarmed self-defense. They also practice traditional Ninja weapons: swords, knifes, spears, nunchakus (the two sticks connected with a chain), sai daggers, churikens (pointy objects you throw at your opponent, mainly to distract him), and so on. On top of that, they have a whole bunch of ninja secrets that I don't know so much about, these include recepies for powders that make you blind if they throw it in your eyes, secret training methods, spiritual and demonic rites and so on. It's a fairly facinating art. I don't know too much on the history and traditions of the Ninja, but I'm sure someone else can tell you more.

[ninjaaron]

contrary to what my screen name might imply, I don't understand anything that anyone here is talking about. I just like ninjas in movies.

(Ok, I've read a couple books about Tia Chi, Kung Fu, and Jujitsu, but I've forgoten most of what I read and have never done any traning, except for amature wrestling, which is only distantly related. Don't ask, I don't know).

[ninjaaron]

I don't know too much on the history and traditions of the Ninja, but I'm sure someone else can tell you more.

I just know the legend.

The shoguns were always fighting with each other for control of more territory, and generally did not give a crap about human rights or people, or any or that. Their samuri were apparently very loyal and all that, and were very great fighters and swordsmen (read the 'tale of the five rings' for a look into the samuri mindset from a master). They had very strict honor codes and stuff.

Eventually, some pesents got pissed and withdrew into the mountians, the supposed 'shinobi', forming a community of people who's one goal was to be free. The way they saw to do this was that every man woman and child was trained to fight. They did not have codes of honor or tradtion, but rather they trained in techniques that were the most effective in eliminating an opponent. Hence, the martial art that developed was very deadly, and was focused on shattering bones and joints, as well as using weapons and enviromental aspects, they also did a lot with theatrics to scare the hell out of opponents. They became assasins so that they could ward off the threat even more effectivly. Eventually the Samuri came to fear and hate the ninja because they had no honor but were just as highly trained, and probalby a lot more lethal, if not in forward combat, certianly in stealth.

Eventually this commuity became corrupt, and could be bought by the shoguns for aid in wars and stuff.

That's the tradtion that I heard.

Another thing. The cool black suits you always see ninjas wearing are seldom what they would actually wear. This would only be used outdoors at night, in the cover of darkness. Ninjas of tradtion are masters of disguise, and will wear anything that gets the job done. One of the earliest known ninja stories involves a great ninja that dressed as a woman in order to get close enough to a shogun to poison him. No fighting, no black suits, just lipstick and high heals (or whatever women in feutal Japan wore).

I don't know what is historical about any of this, and I don't actually care. Tradition makes a hell of a lot better stroy than facts, many times. I'm really just in it for the stories.

[Flyingcursor]

Good answers. Thanks.

[Wanderer]

Here's a pretty good article:
http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinem ... ninja.html

[Tyler]

The way I understand the history of the Ninja (for there are many stories, none of which are %100 verifiable) is along the lines that Henke explained...they were trained in a seperate (and to the Samurai, confusing, because as has been illustrated, they fought in steath, not in the open like the Samurai, and thus had no "honour") manner of fighting which included dusguise, stealth, assasination, poisons, and anatomy that were generally not included in the traditional training of a Samurai...
They were mercinaries, but usually at the command of a daimyo of one clan or other (at least at the time of the Japanese civil wars).
Apart from these and other facts expressed, it is very difficult to trace the origins of the more obscure arts of Japan with %100 certainty.

There are a good number of volumes of literature and refference on www.amazon.com or www.alibris.com

[ninjaaron]

Here's a pretty good article:
http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinem ... ninja.html

Cool stuff.

[Henke]

Another thing. The cool black suits you always see ninjas wearing are seldom what they would actually wear. This would only be used outdoors at night, in the cover of darkness. Ninjas of tradtion are masters of disguise, and will wear anything that gets the job done. One of the earliest known ninja stories involves a great ninja that dressed as a woman in order to get close enough to a shogun to poison him. No fighting, no black suits, just lipstick and high heals (or whatever women in feutal Japan wore).

Yes, very true. I heard that the ninjas that were employed as body guards for the shogun dressed and acted like gardeners and patrolled his castle in that disguise. If the castle was attacked, their regular garden tools became weapons.

But the sneaky black suits looks a helluvalot cooler than dressing like ordinary people right

[jsluder]

The Bujinkan Dojo of Masaaki Hatsumi is the most well-known of the current incarnations of "ninja" schools. His website doesn't have much on it, but a good place to look for more information is the affiliated Bujinkan San Francisco Dojo run by Dale and Teri Seago.

I've never studied this martial art; I'm just familiar with Dale Seago from another forum I read once in a while. My own martial arts experience is limited to a couple of years of Wado Ryu Karate in college, a few months of Aikido training, and a few months of Yang style Tai Chi Chuan. I haven't been actively training in any of it for several years now, and I doubt I'll take it up again. To do it right requires a lot of time and dedication, and there are just too many other things I'd rather put the effort into (such as music, hiking, kayaking, etc.).

Cheers,
John

[Wanderer]

About 5 years ago, I took nearly 6 months of Bujinkan from the texas dojo here:
http://kihon.com/dojo/tx.html

I used to teach my class in the same building, and had a student who also went to this class, and me and the head instructor both hung out on the same dialup chat system. So, naturally, so I got interested in his class as a result of all of those connections.

He could do mean things with shuriken, for sure. In the 6 months I was there, we did lots of throws, joint locks, and weapons evasion.

[Flyingcursor]

Great article Wanderer.