Antique non-pitch flute

[James_Alto]

You're thinking too much. The sounding length alone doesn't say that much about the actual pitch of the flute. Just forget about the length of the flute and the 600mm for a moment. Open the tuning slide at 10mm and play a note against a tuner. If it's sharp, try turning the blow hole more toward you and directing the jet of air more toward the centre of the hole. Still sharp? Open the tuning slide a bit. If the tuning slide moves too much and you fear the headjoint will fall apart, it is not good, as it means that it will also easily leak air. Take the headjoint off the barrell (I'm assuming it actually HAS a tuning slide, but you didn't put pictures), clean the metal first and then rub some beeswax all around, assemble and disassemble to try and add beeswax untill it is firm but still moving for tuning.

This bit isn't the problem...it can be sharpened and flattened at will by embouchure. But the only note I can play (with both hands and elastic bands!) are B A G! The tuning tenon is fine too - I can get the pitch okay, but it still doesn't calibrate with my Boehm flute ..

I've already finished cleaning it

You mentioned the foot holes, but at the moment you don't need to do anything about them, just leave them open and don't use them. You first have to try reach the low D, that won't sound strong untill you seal all leaks.
And do take off the keys, just remember to not mix the pins, everyone belongs to its own key.

Errr..mmm. I'm petrified of disassembling it. The footjoint does not stay on (loose) due to the worn cork tenon. There is a problem with the last key pad on the main joint which also doesn't seal. In fact, only 2 keys seal and spring open properly!

[James_Alto]

For your clip, it might be helpful to hear something more systematic - a tune (any tune), scales, etc. And as Othannen said, blocking the key vents - with blue tack and/or tape under the pads for now if you don't want to remove the keys* - will allow you to demo it keyless, do a suck test, and check the basic integrity of the instrument.

Haha - I wish! I need an extra set of hands, to seal off all the leaks to play it! Only 2 keys work (with no manual pad lift). Being able to play an octave on this would be a dream. Maybe after it's repaired.

I'm trying to find blue tack at home and I can't see any anywhere. I'm going to have to try the tape under the pads....

From what I heard on your YouTube clip, it sounds like you've got leaks, so no telling what the pitch could be based on what you're playing. With a scale in 2 octaves, we might guess if the head cork position is near enough to be useful. We neither know the configuration of the flute (Pratten, Rudall, or other), whether there's a tuning slide, any obvious cracks, etc. Leaking at the tenons/sockets is another issue you might need to attend to. Each joint can be tested for leaks individually using the suck test, but sometimes the leak is only when assembled (including leaking at the slide).

I'll show you in a minute.

I thought I did my research on this flute, and bought it more for its reputation (mystique? mystification?)

Now that I'm playing with the few patent notes I can do on it, I'm starting to like its sound. It's quite interesting as a sound....despite the leaks. Maybe I won't bin it after all...

The tenons have ancient cork in it. I'm keen to get rid of it incase any creepy crawlies clamber out of those dodgy looking cork markings...

[James_Alto]

MTGuru is right (as always! ) - the point in having pictures is to see what it is you have and what state it is in so we can advise you accordingly. We cannot do that from sound clips. Even if it was sounding perfect, we'd still need to see it to pass useful opinions. e.g. on the sounding length/pitch issue - a conoid bore between c580-590mm should be playable at 440 with some slide extension; a Bohm bore will not. You haven't described the flute in that sort of technical detail either. Lengths on their own, without more info as to the type of flute, tell us very little. Good pictures (better than words) plus a few measurements will tell us a great deal and enable us to tell you what you need to know/do.

And I agree with those who've said that if you blow it (whatever it is) like you're used to blowing your Bohm flute, it will sound more like that than anything else/it will sound like you playing how you're used to playing.

Jem - I thought you'd 'piece' this one together

This is the one I mentioned to you - I was doing some research on it in the internet (or at least I thought I had). Apart from teasing you guys doing blind mobile phone sound trials ... I suppose this thread is really an extension of viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82636&hilit=%2450+% ... difference

No one can tell the difference if the flute is broken lol.

Well when I was fudging around the internet finding out about it - I found this one with a later serial number:

From the site: http://www.arthurhaswell.co.uk/Sales.htm (top one) Although at that price of £1895 (not quite $5000 either), I was definitely going to pass.

The seller marked it as 650mm long .. but this was just an estimated length. It's fully closed length is 655mm. With the tenon extended it sounds anything from 660mm to over 670mm beyond the tenon mark.


I've finished cleaning mine up now. It was incredibly easy to clean all the gunk off. The tarnish just lifted off - looks like it really is `german silver. Here it is:

[LorenzoFlute]

Apart from teasing you guys doing blind mobile phone sound trials ... I suppose this thread is really an extension of viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82636&hilit=%2450+% ... difference

No one can tell the difference if the flute is broken lol.

If the flute is broken there's nothing to listen to. You can judge a flute only if it's working properly.
As you can see, nobody gave you the wrong answer. Of course, DON'T mess up with a BOEHM SYSTEM KEYWORK, which is much harder to deal with than a simple system keywork.

I replied to this thread because I wanted to be of some help, not to be teased. Thanks for wasting my time here.

[jemtheflute]

Duh. OK, James, I'm not very with it just now.... had almost forgotten about your RC&Co Rockstro model off eBay. Well, of course it sounds like a Bohm flute - 'cos it is one, to all intents and purposes. Can't really tell from your photos what metal the mechanism is due to the light quality and back-cloth colour, though FWIW it looks more like sterling than GS to me. In natural light, is it a goldy-yellow (like pale brass) or "white" silvery? If the latter, it is sterling silver - which I think is perhaps a little more likely.

The SL of 590 is definitely HP, though not at the extreme of such, and you may get away with playing it at 440 with the slide about half-extended and with a very flat-blowing embouchure.

As for fixing it, it should take/work with modern Bohm flute pads just fine, though a standard set for a modern label probably won't give you all the right sizes and you'll need some odd ones. Given the fiddle of adjusting them and regulating the mechanism, if you've no experience of doing so I wouldn't try yourself, but, as I suggested to you in our pms, send it to a specialist like Arthur Haslam, who will do it properly, including finishing the clean-up. I definitely think this flute is worth the cost of doing that. You aren't going to get anywhere much with it with blutack and rubber bands. It should end up, properly overhauled, as an excellent, very playable flute in its own right, though probably not usable in modern ensemble.

[James_Alto]

Apart from teasing you guys doing blind mobile phone sound trials ... I suppose this thread is really an extension of viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82636&hilit=%2450+% ... difference

No one can tell the difference if the flute is broken lol.

If the flute is broken there's nothing to listen to. You can judge a flute only if it's working properly.
As you can see, nobody gave you the wrong answer. Of course, DON'T mess up with a BOEHM SYSTEM KEYWORK, which is much harder to deal with than a simple system keywork.

I replied to this thread because I wanted to be of some help, not to be teased. Thanks for wasting my time here.

Thanks Lorenzo - I apologise if you think I've been winding people up. Teasing isn't quite the same - by uploading a clip of an unknown and broken flute (and separating it from its mystique brand name) - that's the issue I face.

I don't wish to repair a flute that I have no intention of playing - but if I can milk any sound out of it, I'd reasoning that any insight into the sound quality, from no matter how limited the notes ... will give an idea of what this flute is capable of. I appreciate that the mobile phone quality is dire, but I'm working on this ...

I have taken on board what you've said about the other factors required for sounding length...it's just that I don't understand it all so I will have to re-read it later, when other parts of sizing up the repair bill makes sense.

[James_Alto]

Duh. OK, James, I'm not very with it just now.... had almost forgotten about your RC&Co Rockstro model off eBay. Well, of course it sounds like a Bohm flute - 'cos it is one, to all intents and purposes. Can't really tell from your photos what metal the mechanism is due to the light quality and back-cloth colour, though FWIW it looks more like sterling than GS to me. In natural light, is it a goldy-yellow (like pale brass) or "white" silvery? If the latter, it is sterling silver - which I think is perhaps a little more likely.

The SL of 590 is definitely HP, though not at the extreme of such, and you may get away with playing it at 440 with the slide about half-extended and with a very flat-blowing embouchure.

As for fixing it, it should take/work with modern Bohm flute pads just fine, though a standard set for a modern label probably won't give you all the right sizes and you'll need some odd ones. Given the fiddle of adjusting them and regulating the mechanism, if you've no experience of doing so I wouldn't try yourself, but, as I suggested to you in our pms, send it to a specialist like Arthur Haslam, who will do it properly, including finishing the clean-up. I definitely think this flute is worth the cost of doing that. You aren't going to get anywhere much with it with blutack and rubber bands. It should end up, properly overhauled, as an excellent, very playable flute in its own right, though probably not usable in modern ensemble.

Thanks Jem. I didnt realise it was a Boehm flute. In my naivety, I saw the tapered headjoint and presumed it was conical. What you say ties up though: the air volume required to shift it feels ... just like a Boehm flute. More in fact - due to numerous air leaks. Nuts. It will be a year then before I finally get my hands on a conical flute then. Yes - it was yellowy-gold when I got it (and even rusty coloured) but has cleaned up to a white silvery colour.

Since I'm in the UK for the summer, I'll try and see what the repairers say! Time to put away the rubber bands and get the telephone directory ..

Many thanks for your insights again

[jemtheflute]

In my naivety, I saw the tapered headjoint and presumed it was conical. What you say ties up though: the air volume required to shift it feels ... just like a Boehm flute. More in fact - due to numerous air leaks. Nuts. It will be a year then before I finally get my hands on a conical flute then. Yes - it was yellowy-gold when I got it (and even rusty coloured) but has cleaned up to a white silvery colour.

Since I'm in the UK for the summer, I'll try and see what the repairers say! Time to put away the rubber bands and get the telephone directory ..

Many thanks for your insights again

Aaaaargh! Simple system flutes as generally used for ITM and by most of us here have CYLINDRICAL heads and tapering, conoid bodies!!!!!!!!! Bohm's design (his second one) was the "parabolic" (i.e. expanding from the stopper) head with cylindrical body. Rockstro just made some tweaks to the mechanism, but used Bohm's tube. Your silver Bohm flute has a tapering head!

Sounds like your mechanism is sterling, then. Phone Haslam (I gave you his link before) and see what he says regarding a quote for an overhaul. I'd say that up to what you already paid for it would be worthwhile - you'd have an excellent and interesting flute for c £600 - roughly what I paid for the HP Carte 1867 System I bought earlier this year.

[Steve Bliven]

.....If the tenons should be thread-wrapped instead of corked, I can point you to instructions on how to do that.

Point me too please while you're at it.

Thanks and best wishes.

Steve

[Denny]

viewtopic.php?t=53586

'course Clive's link is dead...but Jem is still wound up

[I.D.10-t]

'course Clive's link is dead...

There's the Wayback Machine...

[jemtheflute]

But the tenons in question here are quite definitely originally cork-lapped and need to be so again.

[James_Alto]

Aaaaargh! Simple system flutes as generally used for ITM and by most of us here have CYLINDRICAL heads and tapering, conoid bodies!!!!!!!!! Bohm's design (his second one) was the "parabolic" (i.e. expanding from the stopper) head with cylindrical body. Rockstro just made some tweaks to the mechanism, but used Bohm's tube. Your silver Bohm flute has a tapering head!

Sounds like your mechanism is sterling, then. Phone Haslam (I gave you his link before) and see what he says regarding a quote for an overhaul. I'd say that up to what you already paid for it would be worthwhile - you'd have an excellent and interesting flute for c £600 - roughly what I paid for the HP Carte 1867 System I bought earlier this year.

Crikes. I've no idea about geometry! Here's what Wiki says when I've looked up conoid:

"In geometry, a conoid is a Catalan surface all of whose rulings intersect a fixed line, called the axis of the conoid. If all its rulings are perpendicular to its axis, then the conoid is called a right conoid."

Catalan surfaces - not Basque?

I have a book with an image of Quantz, holding a flute which is a baroque flute. I've always thought these were conical bores. My marbles must have deserted me, and I'm seeing what you mean now about the bore. No wonder this Rockstro is a breath and a half to blow then! Its bore is much much wider than my silver Boehm flute.

Is the Rockstro headjoint compatible with any of the other Rudall Carte flutes Jem? The headjoint makes a very beautiful deep sound when I play with my finger in it. It might be a psychological thing, but I seem to be convinced (or am convincing myself) that this is capable of making a fantastic sound despite its age. Maybe flutes aren't things that improve with technology ... and the best ones are from the high era of flute playing in the last century...

The tenons are indeed cork. In the silver Boehm flute, the metal just slides over one another in direct contact.

I'll try a local repair guy to me tomorrow and if I get no joy, then I'll try Haswells. Your HP sounds great. This other Rudall has already hit double my limit for the Rockstro:http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... escription

[jemtheflute]

The Baroque flute - Hotteterre, Quantz, etc. - is indeed conoid bodied, but with a cylindrical head, just like our C19th simple system flutes. "Conoid" in the less technical sense of "resembling a cone"; or more accurately, a truncated cone, of course - the top, pointy end being absent. "Conoid" or "conical" flute bores are rarely a simple, uniformly tapering truncated cone, however, having approximately 1/3 of their length (the head) cylindrical and the remaining, tapering part often having a variable degree of contraction in segments and even having "chambers" where there may be a slight re-expansion.

As for your Rockstro, I very much doubt the bore (the diameter of the hole inside the body) is significantly wider than your silver flute - it should be c 19mm, the same, though just possibly it may be nearer 20mm. What is "fatter" is the outside diameter, necessarily in an Ebonite or wooden flute for structural strength.

I haven't done a lot of interchanging of heads of old Rudall Carte Bohm-type flutes with "French" double tuning slides - never had the opportunity! But yes, I believe they ought to be fairly standard (just different lengths according to pitch of the instrument they belong to) and therefore interchangeable. There was a fashion 20 years or so back for reusing them on modern metal bodies because of their lovely voicing - for which the top end of the metal body has to be modified to provide a compatible tenon with cork lapping. Not, I believe a major operation.

As for improvement with time, I think you'd find that present day top Bohm flute makers would argue there have been advances - in particular in embouchure cuts, in scale design/tuning and in aspects of the design and materials of the mechanisms. That is not to say there is no recognition of the good qualities of the best old Bohm flutes (think Louis Lot). Rudall Cartes were, of course, particularly famous for their embouchures. Today I think one might perhaps be more likely to put a modern head on an old body, such have been the developments in embouchures, from what I gather (this not being my main area of interest!)

The other one you link should indeed go for a considerable deal more as it is a highly collectable early Rudall Bohm system - Bohm's first (1832) design on a traditional conoid body (with old style foot keys), cf Rick Wilson's relevant pages: http://www.oldflutes.com/boehm.htm#con & http://www.oldflutes.com/boehm.htm#mod

[MTGuru]

I replied to this thread because I wanted to be of some help, not to be teased. Thanks for wasting my time here.

I agree, Othannen. The Moderator is not amused.