Firth flute 6 key demonstration, and Rudolf Tutz

[Nanohedron]

A session-playing gadabout trying to impress the ladies in Brighton might prefer a larger, more manly flute.

As ever, we menfolk are dogged by the bromide that size matters.

[Terry McGee]

Terry, I actually like your graph showing hole #5 size by time. It tells us that R&R had a variety of hole #5 sizes across multiple eras. What I'd REALLY like is a chart of #4 size and/or a chart of how the #4-#5 size relationship correlates across time.

I might be able to do something about that. In the meantime, this might whet (or satisfy?) your appetite: (excuse the formatting!)
Note it's over the full period of my data, #454 to #7174

Hole No - Max (Avg) Min
Hole 4 - 9.4 (8.4) 6.0
Hole 5 - 11 (9.2) 7.5
Hole 6 - 7 (6.0) 5.0

In any case, the way I read your chart, hole #5 size from your sample of R&R flutes falls into clusters as follows:
27: 7.5 - 8.5mm
13: 9.0 - 9.75mm
21: 10 - 11mm

If I understand flute-making strategy... A smaller holed flute permits some cross-finger playing in the old style, at the cost of needing to vent the F-nat key to bring F# up to tone. So with a fixed size for hole #4, you could choose to leave hole #5 smaller, or open it up so you don't need to vent F#. In other words, you could have a smaller holed flute with a larger or smaller hole #5.

A regency-era flute player who prefers the traditional, more 18th style of flute playing, might choose a smaller-holed flute.

A session-playing gadabout trying to impress the ladies in Brighton might prefer a larger, more manly flute.

I'm not convinced about the F natural cross fingering - it sort of worked in baroque flutes (but needed a lot of embouchure correction), but by the time we get to Hole 5 sizes around 8mm, I don't reckon it's realistic. But let others with small holed flutes chip in here. Can you play Fnat at xxx xox x and F# as xxx xoo o (where the last x or o is the Eb key closed or opened)? Or does xxx xox x just sound F# a bit shaded?

And keep in mind that if you increase hole 5 after setting hole 4, you'll drive the G note sharp. You have to "work up from the bottom" when tuning flutes, as each hole affects the one above it a lot, but the ones below it hardly at all.

[GreenWood]

Re. I agree, it is an interesting thread and conversation... just carry on, because I really don't know any more that I could say beyond that antique American flutes seem slightly neglected, and I think that might be to do with pride of place being granted to, or secured at the time by, the empire of the day (i.e. UK) ? What is also interesting is Lynn signals it as an American flute by build or looks... to me it looks sturdier than other flutes, like chunky without being chunky (or in a nice way)...if that is what he meant.

Thanks for that link Paddler

[tstermitz]

@Greenwood. Maybe not so neglected.

It's just that they don't say Rudall & Rose on the label. Maybe the interest is on a par with interest in other antique English flutes that aren't R&R.

Pricewise, you can get a good cocus American flute with 8 keys that has minimal intonation difficulty starting at the $2,000 price point. Lower price of course if they aren't renovated.

A modern flute from a good maker has a multi-month or multi-year wait. Price there starts at around $3,500 for six keys in blackwood or other nice flute wood. You get a flute that is usually well-intonated with a modern embouchure.

[GreenWood]

I was mulling that over just now tstermitz, and about how many lesser known makers of the period there are that might be little known.

Of all things, I was trying to track down Giorgio Xicluna of Malta for Paddler here is the little I found Paddler....

[ Giorgio Xicluna

Flutes by Giorgio Xicluna
I am looking for wind instruments by ‘Giorgio Xicluna’ (or ‘Giorgio Scicluna’). Though the New Langwill Index lists Xicluna as a dealer in flutes, in 1830 the Parish Census lists Giorgio, aged 32 and living in Valletta, as ‘fabricante di strumenti di fiato’. In 1839, an advert in a local paper refers to him as ‘Signor Xicluna, fabricante di strumenti musicali in Valletta…..’.
I would appreciate any information that members may have come across regarding Xicluna’s instruments, possibly also in connection with Regiments posted in Malta in the early to mid 19 th century. Thank you.
Anna Borg Cardona
musicallegacy@hotmail.com

....

575.pdf

18?? British summary of exports and economy of various countries.

Mathematical Instrument Maker

Xicluna, G. 60, strada Reale

....

11595.pdf

NEWSLETTER
Of The
American Musical Instrument Society
Vol. XVIII, No.1 February 1989

No. 4443. Flute by George Xicluna, Malta, ca. 1820. Boxwood, ivory, one key.

(1988 USD Music Museum acquisitions) ]


..... and could not even find the street address...

[ but is somewhere in the photos listed under Republic Street here

https://vassallohistory.wordpress.com/s ... nt-page-1/

because Strada Reale was renamed ]

..and so ended up searching for clarinets made by him without success but ended up with unpriced

https://www.lot-art.com/auction-lots/Ea ... .21-artemi

Which led to

https://witherells.com/lot/19th-century ... te-3946569

for "a hundred bucks" . George Aster of London returns nothing in search, but the flute looks ok ? I know German flutes of the time are often considered a dime a dozen, nice looking but poor playing, and possibly for some unusual reason Pakistan flute makers took them as western prototypes , but British and American flutes outside of main names, even for antique value for if the above does not play well, don't seem to be of great interest. Clare Beesley related how her Rudall almost went to the skip, for example.

I have no criticism of Rudall flutes at all, I just think that much was aligned for their success, the US at the time still being a rabble of degenerate troublemakers or something along those lines...special relationship we have with you lot and all that. Britain was organised and it had a large economy, which is sort of helpful as a background to any business at all.

Anyway, I will upload a clip of Catherine McEvoy slowed down, and remove it and apologise profusely if it is not allowed or welcomed, and there you will hear how she is able to make her Rudall speak. I know it is in great part the talent of the player, but of other flutes I have heard there are none that are like this.

https://e1.pcloud.link/publink/show?cod ... wfvSe9V0PX

Remembering she is playing two or three times the above speed. There are modern flutes I much like, but it is that I find the older flutes have a different quality that is not present in more modern ones, and I could not pinpoint it more than that... ?

[GreenWood]

This is for Paddler or anyone else collecting/repairing.. and I'm sort of thankful I'm not collecting flutes, because there always seem to be some of interest somewhere. Firth and Pond for repair and Buffet Crampon for repair, both around 400 dollars.

Firth

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325071159519?h ... SwEyliArHH


Buffet

https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... cf7db49158

Not same flute but all the same....


http://www.originalflutes.com/sold-flut ... 6-key.html

I guess buyers have to be careful of scams though.

[tstermitz]

@greenwood. That Firth flute has been on eBay for months. It's different beast entirely from what we're talking about. Smaller holes. Missing keys, plugged holes, Ivory rings.

Deals occasionally show up, but you do need to know where the fools gold is. For example, a lot of later 19th C English flutes are cheap because they can't possibly play at A440.

[BKWeid]

Absolutely fantastic discussion. Thank you all for sharing your expertise.

[GreenWood]

@greenwood. That Firth flute has been on eBay for months. It's different beast entirely from what we're talking about. Smaller holes. Missing keys, plugged holes, Ivory rings.

Deals occasionally show up, but you do need to know where the fools gold is. For example, a lot of later 19th C English flutes are cheap because they can't possibly play at A440.

I agree completely there tstermitz, and am well aware that all flutes are not created equal, and even by same maker same model and so on. That is really what this discussion is about though I think, a walk into the world of lesser known 19th century flutes ? That has to include "classical flutes" also in my opinion, because although say Rudall flutes were well adapted to traditional Irish music ( and am doing my best to keep it on topic wrt ), they were also classical flutes (I feel sure they were not just played at full volume e.g.) . I saw Lynn had an early Firth version also, and he was not over impressed by it , but the transition to larger toneholes seems gradual in many cases and I'm not certain that made all the difference ? I will guess that under 7 mm for #4 is going to be early, but the 1 key listed by Terry is only a fraction under, and a fraction smaller, than Grey Larson's, so it is possible there were a combination of changes and tonehole (and embouchure) size are just the most obvious ?

I don't know where else I would post the following, which I just came across, a history of Portuguese flutes 1750-1850, with pictures and various dimensions (pictures starting around halfway through the document). So anyone searching Chiff might find this link from the terms I just included.

https://ria.ua.pt/bitstream/10773/1269/1/2011000002.pdf

There are audio clips for the Silva and Haupt flute online as video, but classical... some of the flutes listed go to at least 7.5mm

[ Silva and Haupt flute being played

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wUPu0kNY8To
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qihbMkhIm-8
]

[GreenWood]

Tstermitz... I will add though, that the old Firth flute not being sold for months doesn't really say one thing or another. No-one will know for sure how it plays until repaired, the trim and build are typical for the day and although not what someone might take to play trad music... how it sounds is still of interest. Another real interest is that it is a two hundred year old flute and from a known maker, a prototype on their journey to making ones like your own. If you go back only a little earlier you are on to baroque period flutes, of which there are only a few hundred possibly, and before that renaissance flutes, of which there are even less, and much appreciating his honest account I'm sure Lynn would not find those very playable as well . In other words how many early Firth flutes are there for sale worldwide at the moment ... one ? Most known early flutes in Europe are already in collection or museum, so to find those for sale and the sale neglected is a bit surprising...though admittedly I am not putting money where my words are. My own collecting explains why... I don't pay for "antique" items but go further and will spend ten hours physically searching to find something lost or abandoned that I could otherwise buy for the eq. of an hours work ... and for flutes it is more along the direction of making ones close to older designs.

It is quite a "niche" reality though, and slightly removed from buying working order flutes to play traditional music on, being more along the lines of research or appreciation of antique items and their setting. Take Xicluna for example, in the photo linked above you can see from the surrounding that it was not cheap copy or mass production, instead a craftsman in his workshop working by hand and without electricity trying to make playable examples of the style of flute of the day. For me that is an amazing connection to make when appraising any item...how it was made, in what setting, in what day to day of society.

A further question is of what flutes were being played say in Ireland at that earlier time . Terry mentions somewhere an early tune catalogue showing small holed renaissance style flutes in the illustrations ... or were baroque style ones also being played ?

More questions than answers, as is usual.

[tstermitz]

@GreenWood

If you watch Michael Lynn's demonstration of "5 19th American Flutes", you don't get the impression he finds them unplayable. He says that they play fine in the keys of D and G, and that the intended audience would be amateur parlor flute players.

5 19th American Flutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhJ3Okd-NM

I have a boxwood one-key flute by Firth that plays quite nicely, if gently. I wouldn't bring it to a session, but I'll stash it in my vanagon for something to play on vacation. The Ivory rings intact, but I'm having the missing head cap turned in fake Ivory, and a new key made. A key runs $200, so that damaged 4-key on eBay will cost upwards of $800 to repair, for a flute that is potentially worth $700. Maybe the guy would pay you $100 to take it off his hands

And...

Cocus, Keyed American flutes show up on the market a couple times per year or so, which is a faster time to purchase than the wait for a modern maker to work through their back-log.

[GreenWood]

Thanks for that video Tstermitz. I was going by

http://www.originalflutes.com/american- ... -pond.html

and there he says playable (but I read not superb). I don't know...I would enjoy playing one just for being in touch with that time. Softer tone and slightly out of tune but it sounds nice enough to me, and usually you have to fully adopt a particular flute to find its best also ?

"Maybe the guy would pay you $100 to take it off his hands... "

Just postage would be fine . I think it is more a project for a flute maker/restaurer, because cost of a new key is time more than material, but I guess there are those who would pay that for restauration.

"...which is a faster time to purchase than the wait for a modern maker to work through their back-log."

Except there will "always be" modern makers, so there is a certainty that a particular flute can be ordered. For antique flutes there is no offer beyond when someone chooses to sell .

[Terry McGee]

The earlier discussion seemed to identify some US-made flutes that are of larger holes and therefore more robust performance compared to the small-holed flute that led to my Grey Larsen Preferred model. This image of the gorgeous Firth, Son & Co 8-key from Paddler's excellent on-line gallery illustrates the point nicely. This is not a small-holed flute...



It invites some questions:
- were these US makers copying the generality of larger-holed English-made flutes of the period?
- or were they indeed copying specific English-made flute(s), and if so, can we narrow down what those flutes were?
- or was this an independent US development, and if so, can we prove that beyond reasonable doubt?

Paddler, tstermitz (and anyone else who has a flute answering a similar description and access to English-made flutes for the purposes of comparison), what's your feeling? I'd be interested in getting some "vital statistics" to compare with flutes I have here or have data on.

[Flutern]

Paddler, tstermitz (and anyone else who has a flute answering a similar description and access to English-made flutes for the purposes of comparison), what's your feeling? I'd be interested in getting some "vital statistics" to compare with flutes I have here or have data on.

I will post a longer message later (with photos and more information) as I'm in the process of moving house, but I have 2 data points that may be relevant to this discussion: Rudall, Rose, Carte & Co #6078 (narrow bore, small holes) and a William Hall & Son (narrow bore, medium holes). Both come with their original head and a new head joint (made by Jay Ham and Chris Norman, respectively).

The bores are very similar, to the extent that I can swap the barrels (and therefore the headjoints). I've been experimenting with the different combinations quite a bit lately, and it's been very informative regarding the roles of the headjoint and body.

I'll post more details in a week or two, but in the meantime, just to whet your appetite, here is the William Hall & Son played by Michael Lynn (who I bought the flute from):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYMc46wFBWg
http://www.originalflutes.com/american- ... rXz6-cENqU

[tstermitz]

The Firth, Son & Co I have for sale right now looks identical to the one from Paddler's website, except that mine has very wide rings.

I've been keeping track of some hole sizes for some Rudall style flutes that I've come across:

Hole4 Hole5 Top-Bore
8.90 11.2 18.2 Gallagher "Large-hole"
9.10 10.5 18.5 RR1 #3527
7.50 7.70 18.0 RR3 #1696
7.20 8.20 18.3 RR2 #4676
7.90 9.50 17.5 Firth, Son & Co 6-key
7.70 9.40 17.3 Firth, Son & Co 8-key
7.60 9.00 18.0 Firth, Pond & Co 8-Key
7.50 9.20 xxxx William Hall 8-key
6.80 7.30 16.8 Firth, Hall & Pond Boxwood 1-key

Note that the FS&Co is 1860s, William Hall and FP&Co is 1850s. The 1-key is obviously a different category of flute. I'm tempted to postulate that American flute holes got bigger decade-by-decade, corresponding to what was happening over in London.

Notably hole #5 is consistently about 1.6mm larger on the American flutes, while on the R&Rs the G-F# hole size comparison is more variable. Although a sample of three is not statistically significant, and come from different decades.

Venting F-nat on my #3xxx series R&R makes no difference at all. I don't have other R&Rs with me, and wasn't able to test whether F# requires a vent or not. Erik now owns the FP&Co, and reported that F# was a little flat unless he vented. I never felt that, but he's a better player than I am. Also he pushes the flute more than I do, if that makes a difference on F# intonation.