Things we tell Newbies

[Doug_Tipple]

Get a Tipple.

Please excuse me for quoting you out of context, Terry (I've been reading too many political comments), but I do appreciate the recommendation.

[Cron-Z]

I wonder if we should just pause and have a discussion about what we're telling these innocents.

Aww, come on... I'm not that innocent !

What Terry started here is a very important step, but one that will be seen as an opened "can of worms" as this thread progresses. I'm as newbie as they get, but I have played the silver (boehm/transverse/etc.) flute for years.

Putting the flute-selection asside, the most sensitive issue when a newbie comes here asking for advice is what they are looking for in terms of quantity of information. Some of them want as much information as possible to help in taking a decision, but some of them get intimidated if you give them more information than what they need. Some of them want all the possibilities while some get confused by contradictory information.

It is important to take the step Terry took, to pause and reflect on what is said to the newcomers that come here with the sparkle in their cyber-eyes asking for guidance in this wonderful world of traditional irish music. There are sensitive and contradictory information on a technical level, but also what each newcomer seek in terms of information for what they need.

--my two cents... it's Canadian, so it's not worth much but it's mine.

Get a Tipple.

Please excuse me for quoting you out of context, Terry (I've been reading too many political comments), but I do appreciate the recommendation.

I did get a Tipple. It should arrive very soon.

[lixnaw]

THINGS WE TELL OLDIES

Take in your slack and get a pair of these

http://tinyurl.com/cglhqs

[Gordon]

I wonder if we should just pause and have a discussion about what we're telling these innocents.

Presumably we want these newbies to catch on as quickly and efficiently as possible. We want them to be playing in tune, with a dark and focussed tone, in the manner to which we are accustomed. So, shouldn't we be recommending to them flutes that encourage that?

Thoughts?

Terry

I do think that starting with any relatively in-tune flute is a good idea, but learning any instrument or music takes commitment, patience, hard work and tenacity and the flute choice is secondary to this. A difficult flute may, in fact, help this process (by difficult, I mean embouchure design and flat-foot tuning, not Pakistani knock-off difficult), although, certainly, someone lucky enough to start out learning on a top-shelf flute by a top-shelf maker will benefit directly from that, too. Who these "top-shelf" makers are, of course, is always good for a debate, too, come to think... Commitment, say, on an old German flute may be higher than on a perfectly playable delrin or folk flute, and thus produce a better player. Or not, if the player's got a good grasp of what they're going for in the first place and the folk flute they have gets them a decent buzz.

I've been on this forum for years and I've yet to hear a consensus on by what means a beginner learns quickly and efficiently, whether by "easy" or more difficult embouchure designs, overall flute design, learning all ornaments first or getting the basic tunes or rhythms down first, etc. While it'd be nice (and, presumably, a consensus over basic things is what we'd all like), it is highly unlikely that all or most of the non-beginners here will even agree on what these recommendations are or should be.

Newbies will, unfortunately, have to muddle along until they get it, or something resembling it, just like the rest of us did...

IMHO, of course...

[chas]

I was gonna say something along the lines of what Gordon said. The right flute for a beginner is the one that makes him want to play. In my case, I started out with a couple of flutes I didn't enjoy, then got a third that was much easier for me to play. After two years of dabbling, I finally began to play, on a flute that most would probably consider inferior to the first two, but I finally stuck with it.

Something else I'm wont to add is that it's up to the reader to decide what's good advice and what's not. If someone discovers this board and immediately posts a question without learning some history of the board and the different posters' points of view, then follows some bad advice, it's his own fault. The right way to go about it is to read for a month, or at least read back into the archives to find out a little about the people you're asking. Only then can you sift through the differing responses with any hope of gauging where your own truth lies.

[david_h]

I came here and took advice much in the sprit of crookedtune and chas's posts and I'm very happy with what I heard. I didn't buy a suspiciously low cost new flute. I didn't try a cylindrical flute until lipping up the second octave was no big deal (at least on slowish tunes) and it was so much more fun than trying to play most whistles in tune that I wish I had got one years ago.

And I'm not sure that a bit of gymnastics are not useful exercise, especially since you guys often don't seem to agree on how 'in tune' flutes are in any case, partially I guess because you don't always agree on how to blow them.

Best advice was along the lines of " learning is not going to be easy or fast so be prepared to put the time in and things will get better".

[Cork]

...That's of course a claim made often in Irish flute circles, but to my knowledge rarely in classical circles...

It's also a claim made often in pre-Classical, Baroque circles, too.

;-)

[pkev]

Hi there,

FWIW, I've more or less stuck with Generation whistles and more recently a couple of Dixon whistles. A Gen Bb, Gen D and Dixon Brass D and Dixon Alum D

As far as Newbies go I could really only recommend the ones I have. I don't have the funds to get a really expensive whistle or flute. I do however have a Dixon rosewood 3 pc keyless flute that's 3 years old. It retailed at £235.00 but I got it for £65.00 cos the makers stamp was messed up so it was one of Tony's seconds.

I do think however that it really is changed days from the 70's and the whole trad scene sadly is very much different.

Perhaps too much of a generalisation here but......what you have today
are people who want to be spoonfed with everything.....people who are greedy buggers and materialistic. You also have the so called educated people who argue over just about anything to do with trad music whether it's how to behave yourself at a session or how to properly spell air /e
or should you let a mandolin in on an Irish session or what about Back up Guitar. There's also an unhealthy element of competitiveness between musicians these days which I think is spoiling trad music

While it may be the Internet and some of topics may indeed be interesting

Back in the 70's and 80's you actually had music and musicians who played and shared tunes without all the crap you have today!

Best Advice for a Newbie.....Shock news! You can learn to play traditional music without the Internet

Cheers
pkev

[ElaineT]

I had one student who got a solid embouchure going quickly and easily, despite being an adult who had never played winds. Know what she did? She dropped $3K on a brand new 6-keyed McGee GLP through Grey Larsen's website. It's an easy-blowing instrument that was great for a beginner and will never limit her. (This flute is great for the gentle style she likes.) I wish I had been able to start out that way.

I'm not saying beginners should drop thousands of dollars, but there really is no substitute for an easy-blowing, wooden, conical bore flute. Every student I've had who has insisted on starting with a really cheap flute has had a slower time getting started and most have given up. (I have started to take insistence on the cheapest flute possible as a bad sign.) Instruments hold their value well so it is rarely a mistake for a beginner to buy the best they can afford. I think instruments like Fred Rose's flutes or the Folk Flutes are best for people who can't see their way clear to spending more.

The other piece of advice that is contradictory on this board is grip. I've seen people here pontificating on the ergonomics of classical grip. They totally miss that some people have joint problems or other physical issues that can make that grip quite painful. It also doesn't work for small hands on big-holed Pratten flutes. I couldn't cover the A and F# holes on my Hammy without playing in piper's - my middle fingers sunk into the holes too far.

The recommendations for practice and patience are pretty consistent, thank heavens. Fluting doesn't come fast or easy to most of us non-prodigies.

[joshD]

Perhaps too much of a generalisation here but......what you have today
are people who want to be spoonfed with everything.....people who are greedy buggers and materialistic. You also have the so called educated people who argue over just about anything to do with trad music whether it's how to behave yourself at a session or how to properly spell air /e
or should you let a mandolin in on an Irish session or what about Back up Guitar. There's also an unhealthy element of competitiveness between musicians these days which I think is spoiling trad music

While it may be the Internet and some of topics may indeed be interesting

Back in the 70's and 80's you actually had music and musicians who played and shared tunes without all the crap you have today!

I think that people were doing all of the things you state here back then. The grass is always more green across the way. I am sure that people argued about opinions and ideas just like we do today. Of course it would have been in person and maybe less frequent but it definitely took place. In general things around us do change for better or worse and people over analyzing things and being intellectuals to the hilt has been around since god knows.

Just my opinion

[jim stone]

I had one student who got a solid embouchure going quickly and easily, despite being an adult who had never played winds. Know what she did? She dropped $3K on a brand new 6-keyed McGee GLP through Grey Larsen's website. It's an easy-blowing instrument that was great for a beginner and will never limit her. (This flute is great for the gentle style she likes.) I wish I had been able to start out that way.

I'm not saying beginners should drop thousands of dollars, but there really is no substitute for an easy-blowing, wooden, conical bore flute. Every student I've had who has insisted on starting with a really cheap flute has had a slower time getting started and most have given up. (I have started to take insistence on the cheapest flute possible as a bad sign.) Instruments hold their value well so it is rarely a mistake for a beginner to buy the best they can afford. I think instruments like Fred Rose's flutes or the Folk Flutes are best for people who can't see their way clear to spending more.

The other piece of advice that is contradictory on this board is grip. I've seen people here pontificating on the ergonomics of classical grip. They totally miss that some people have joint problems or other physical issues that can make that grip quite painful. It also doesn't work for small hands on big-holed Pratten flutes. I couldn't cover the A and F# holes on my Hammy without playing in piper's - my middle fingers sunk into the holes too far.

The recommendations for practice and patience are pretty consistent, thank heavens. Fluting doesn't come fast or easy to most of us non-prodigies.

I wasn't aware that any of us who favor classical grip missed your good point about joint problems
and other physical issues making it quite painful for some people. I've argued here in favor of classical grip
a fair amount, but there have been periods where I needed to use piper's grip and there are instruments
that I cannot play without it. I honestly don't believe any of us here are so much in the
dark about the physical realities, nor do I think the difference in grips matters much.
The view has been that, all things being equal, there are some advantages to classical grip, but if it causes
you trouble or for whatever reason isn't for you, don't use it.

As to the rest of your post, I agree emphatically. There are doubtless beginners who are inspired to
exceptional efforts by a hard to play flute, bur I wager that, for every one of those, several more
give up, blaming themselves for the flute's inadequacies. Newbies do that quite a lot, you know.
Oh well, I'm no good at this, not for me. We do not hear from those folks,
they do not write in to tell us they have given up. You see them though.

I do think it's sensible that, as flute is hard to learn and get going on,
a playable flute will tend to increase the prospects of success, while
a tough flute to play will decrease it. If anybody takes this to DENY
that what matters most is determination to succeed, practice and so on,
well, obviously it doesn't. The point is that what matters most isn't the
only thing that matters.

[Cork]

...As to the rest of your post, I agree emphatically. There are doubtless beginners who are inspired to
exceptional efforts by a hard to play flute, bur I wager that, for every one of those, several more
give up, blaming themselves for the flute's inadequacies. Newbies do that quite a lot, you know.
Oh well, I'm no good at this, not for me. We do not hear from those folks,
they do not write in to tell us they have given up...

For a number of substantial reasons, a beginning player does well to start with a flute from a reputable maker, a flute which is KNOWN to play well. However, one really doesn't need a Rolls Royce to learn how to drive, so to speak.

In regard to your comment, Jim, I think you've made a major statement, in that for the vast majority of people it really does take a lot of effort, time, practice, thought, and patience, to learn how to play a flute. That's a very important thing for any beginning flute player to understand.

A note to any beginning players reading this, yes, learning to play a flute can be done, just take it one day at a time, and be persistent!

[Doc Jones]

I started learning to play flute on an aircraft carrier off the coast of North Viet Nam in the early 1970's. There was no one, of the 5,000 on the boat, that would admit to ever having played one. To say nothing of the threats, etc....

I sold a flute to a guy (a few years ago) that was about to embark on a months-long submarine cruise. He was planning to learn to play the flute in the sub. So, anyone that doubts the courage of our men in uniform...

I told him he should take up the bagpipes. As long as he was going to irritate everybody, he might as well really irritate them.

Doc

[david_h]

The other piece of advice that is contradictory on this board is grip. I've seen people here pontificating on the ergonomics of classical grip.

I think being able to weigh up the pros and cons of contradicting advice is essential when going to the internet for opinions. This board has some carefully put cases for both options. And elsewhere on the internet there are videos demonstrating that the pipers grip works just fine .

[Gordon]

The other piece of advice that is contradictory on this board is grip. I've seen people here pontificating on the ergonomics of classical grip.

I think being able to weigh up the pros and cons of contradicting advice is essential when going to the internet for opinions. This board has some carefully put cases for both options. And elsewhere on the internet there are videos demonstrating that the pipers grip works just fine .

I spent many years on a Pratten hybrid, a brilliant flute that I played - I thought - quite easily, with a perfect, fat, spicy tone. As my playing style developed, and a few physical issues sidelined my playing for a bit, I switched over to a modern Rudall type. Great sounding flute, too, with a slightly more difficult embouchure I actually enjoy working with, and quicker fingering. The Pratten still sounds terrific - I've been reluctant to let it go - but I find that the hand adjustments I've made on the Rudall have ruined my ability to easily play the Pratten deftly. To go back, I have to deliberately readjust my grip and overall body/arm position, rethink the physics of where fingers will fall.

We argue hand positions while not talking about whether it is a big holed Pratten with one in-line body being played or a small holed Firth with a split middle (or any other flute type lying somewhere between) as if any of these flutes are or can be held identically. Then, of course, there are individual hand sizes and embouchures, which also allow or disallow sometimes very sage, experienced advice.

This is why advice has to be measured, even when given by a master player/teacher who knows more about playing than the student ever will. What works without pain (not talking newbie discomfort - that comes with the territory), and allows the best mobility for your fingers, is the grip to use. Minor adjustments to the recommended grips, the Rockstro, the pipers - these will probably all be necessary based on your hands and the flute you've chosen to work with. Another reason - even more important, IMO, than embouchure adjustment - to spend most of your learning/playing time on one flute in particular.