Playing Harmonics

[Conical bore]

Edit: not sure what happened with the E4 there at -20 cents however. And some of the notes are from rolls or more like "artifacts", as there certainly was no E3 in the tune. Shows the problems of that software, I guess, when not playing just a clean scale but recording an actual tune.

Yes, the one time I've posted a TTTuner graphic here, I had to edit out the artifacts in Photoshop and just show the main notes of the tune because it will show every partial it picks up. Looks like a good result there.

[Terry McGee]

Yeah, as much as it would be nice to be able to play a tune with all the grace notes into an RTTA system, I think we have to cut it some slack. I usually play bits of scales, not from one end of the range to the other, but all over the place so as to simulate a tune. Or I play some song tunes or something else slowish, and consciously avoid grace notes.

[david_h]

... just show the main notes of the tune because it will show every partial it picks up. ..

I just assume that they are part of what is coming out of the flute, so the software is doing it's job. With me I don't don't know if they are partials or if blips from cuts between repeated notes are being picked up.

The only cylindrical flute I have played regularly is a Tipple G and I don't have much problem blowing the octaves into tune, it's just part of playing that flute. Much more noticeable is that the shorter sounding length means the holes are positioned so as to give a more even scale, so its mainly between the two octaves that requires embouchure gymnastics.

[GreenWood]

Hello everyone.

Terry.

I was considering joining here to post on this topic previously after reading somewhere (might have been your own site) that you didn't get on with renaissance flutes for the cross fingering. As the discussion is up again I decided to comment.

In short, I have played the guitar for a long time, and came around to learning baroque music, and so immersed myself in the instruments of the day, then learned of the evolution of the flute and that barrier which is "Boehm flutes are complex technical masterpieces for professionals" was overcome and I set about making a renaissance flute... mostly after hearing Bartz play, but I think there are other nice soundclips at some makers sites also. None of them show if cross fingering is nescessary though. Anyway I first made a Swiss pfife and then copied the dimensions for a Verona flute... I think Puglisi noted those down and there are a few to be found of his online but not his entire work... or was it using the dimensions of one drawn of the pfife article... either way the wood I had was too short so I had to guesstimate a semitone higher and the flute is in C# base note.

I've not played or made flutes before, in fact it took me a month to realise the third and top note were a whole note low, i.e. I had picked the "wrong" scale to tune those flutes to , which is good really because it showed me how the character of the music I was improvising changed completely after I corrected those. I might build some flutes with different scales just for that. Now I have built a pole lathe also which makes it all a bit easier, and might post on my adventures in making flutes so far... but I'm hesitant, partly because I understand a lot of technique is kept quite by makers and I would not want the local chapter of the flute makers guild to send a consort to play out of tune music outside of my window at night to remind me in my dreams ?

What I think though, is that for ten pounds of material costs (a steel rod to turn into a bore bit, some sandpaper) anyone with normal tools (cordless drill, plane) and a bit of patience is able to produce something much nicer and personal than a plastic pipe versions often suggested online. None of this should be considered competition to professional makers, as I'm sure those are a different level altogether...the opposite in fact because if people actually like picking up their (wooden) flute some are more likely to eventually search for more capable models.


Anyway, as it would be I ended up learning traditional Irish music more than baroque. I tend to go for tone before anything else, and the renaissance flute has a nice tone when played that way. Also, I don't cross finger at all, and though two lower notes aren't perfect at unforced playing (another story) the top three are all very close or right on in the second octave when compared to their lower octave, and without effort -I could not adjust them without changing the lower octave also. So in the next week or two I will plain record some scale and possibly a reel on a very basic setup and post it so you are able to verify this, and if so I will send you or post the actual dimensions for you to try to replicate if that is of interest.

You look for ideas at your site, and one that I thought up, which must have been thought up before as well, is that for some tunes the scale uses a half note before top, and half fingering is possible but not fluid, and is a bit slurred or awkward... so I made a wooden disc that fits the top hole, scalloped the outside inwards so you don't notice it, then bored it to the note required. It push fits to place, and pushes through to take out, and works well...worked well for a long time, I only made it out of a chip of unstrengthened wood and ended up breaking it, will make another.


I just made a "Pratten" as well, I wanted to see what they were all about, incredible how the box at top acts like an amplifier, picks up on details. It is a trial version of olive wood, made up of sections of misdrilled (another story) wood and with embouchure set 3cm out by error away from start of taper... which sounds ok up to first three second octave, then the top three are literally a whole note out in second octave, with first octave all in tune.... .

[GreenWood]

I'll throw in the only short recording I have for what it's worth, recorded half a year ago (and have only been playing for a year now), open rythmic piece, with a cheap mic balanced on my knee to record, just as recorded, etc - doesn't do the flute or its tone justice - but it is just to show that traditional music is playable on renaissance flute, and though for second octave it doesn't include top two notes (which also play in tune with their first octave), it gives a rough idea of how close the tuning is. I'm sure before baroque flutes made their way to Ireland people were playing renaissance style flutes, but what music exactly before 18th century or so I don't know exactly...and surely that has found its way somehow through to what is now traditional Irish music.

https://ln4.sync.com/dl/b49cdb1a0/26q2g ... g-p84eujx9

I don't enjoy recording much, but I will try to record some clearer example, or scales.

[GreenWood]

I thought I would put down in writing various thoughts on renaissance flute seeing as it seems not much discussed. I don't have any experience on other kinds of flute except a trial "Pratten" which I have hardly played, and so these are somewhat unique impressions maybe, for what they are worth or whatever anyone makes of them.

The renaissance flute is able to play going on a well recorded Rudall flute, in terms of tone, but it has to be played more gently to do so. It is capable of darker tones and depth (bark?), but there is some trade off in simplicity between octaves to do that, and only at times do I manage to complement both in a passage, either because my embouchure was warmed up or because I set the flute properly by being at near limit higher octave but still able to reach deep lower octave without any adjustment.

Also the lower notes respond very well to less air, but that is a combined technique with the above. So there is a sweet spot for playing the renaissance flute, it is almost effortless when found, but it is not obvious. I don't think it would have been harder to learn than other flute types at basic level, and maybe sounding towards a Radcliff when played well more sideblown , but certainly other flutes will be easier in different respects for different styles or sound. I mean louder, or more compact (compare recorder and whistle for example), or deeper bass, or more even tone for a certain tone etc.

I think flat foot on conical might be relic to being easily overblown. I have to look at the charts again to see if it carries to second octave. On this flute I did not notice the initial flatness on first octave (though it was there) possibly because we don't refine lower frequency so much and it was mixed with a nice depth. Second octave it was heard clearly, which was a reason for later adjustment. None of the messing with the foot notes much changed the upper notes and their second octave though, and in fact I didn't put lower notes completely in tune because it started to move too far from the finger spacing I was used to. Next renaissance flute will try to have both lower spacing and tuning right. So maybe flat foot was some kind of trade off between octaves on conical due to tuning difficulty , where bass is often overblown anyway and any difference less noticed, while second octave is harder to correct by technique and is more audible ?

I do think upper octave is in tune, and I was often puzzled by talk of its difficulty. I still am. If the design was correct at some point, then a change to conical would be more about tonal quality (recorder vs whistle again), did old descriptions mention difficulty with second octave renaissance ? Spacing also might have come into play. The move back to Boehm would be spacing (now keyed) and eveness of tone, where a conical bore would be more complicated than a help. Maybe the parabola helps quiet any discordant harmonics also, but the science seems to explain why it is needed vs plain cylinder as to correct higher octave ? Also third octave, was that ever a goal then, because the only third I manage is lowest note.

So it's all a bit of a mystery to me. The only real difference I know of that my flute has over "standard" is that I left the topside purposefully thick (maybe 6 mm) to make up for the underside being thin.

For loudness, it plays well for solo and practice, would be good with light accompaniment, would only be accompaniment in a more noisy setting ?

Whatever, it will take a lot of convincing for me to change to another, or another kind of, flute. I will try making all the main other wooden types properly over time, and then I will have a better comparison.

I have to post some proper recordings for any of this to have any credibility, so until then.

[GreenWood]

So this is some scale on the renaissance flute, recorded on a phone simple own mic, no effects, echo is from room, just pushed record and played scales here and there for five minutes , picked the cleanest sounding and pasted them together, haven't checked their pitch. I picked blowing one top note and its second octave seperately because I don't usually play that high and just made an effort to remember to play it at one point... no tunes I know include it... but it is in the fast scale I played also which sort of precludes adjusting each note, and I don't tilt the flute for any of this. Then I slowed that fast scale down x3 on recording software and included it like that so easier to tell by ear, but it's a bit echoee like that for whatever reason. Point is if first and second octave are in tune with each other for any note, not if the whole scale is in tune (because I know I don't have 1st octave tuned perfectly to itself).


https://ln4.sync.com/dl/ce0e56c80/zjmmx ... 9-3rnjvmxy

Apart that I don't know what more I could add, top of second octave notes always sound in tune to me when I play them, and I don't make any effort to control their pitch.

The only other point I can think of is that maybe some "classical aimed renaissance flutes" have smaller holes to improve reaching octaves and clarity and so are out for that in second octave , or that cross fingering also might help clarity. On this flute I tried one cross fingering, third hole down open (rest down) then slightly covered to achieve pitch which was off otherwise when played like that, and it gave a very clean tone but one I also reach without cross fingering ? The Verona flutes have larger holes though .

Finally, apology to OP if I took over his thread or went off topic, I start writing and figured I should just note it all down. I'll be quiet now, and check back just to see if anything is asked of dimensions etc.

[est]

I am pretty sure my Ellis Essential flute is a true cylinder, and it's very easy to get the first two registers to play very much in tune. I'm not sure if it's the flute or the embouchure (or the player's embouchure.. but I really struggle with the 3rd register (much more so than with my Morvan).

As for the 4th register...I had no idea that even existed! I've been really working hard to get up to the 3rd G. Knowing that there may be even more after that ellusive A and B...I will have to start playing around.

I do agree, developing the ability to play that 3rd E has done a lot to improve my embouchure in general.

[Sedi]

The Ellis Essential has a taper in the head like a boehm flute to bring the octaves in tune.