Fraudulent Flute Vendors! Beware!

[an seanduine]

It appears any complaint should be lodged with the ¨Prosecutor General, Government of the Punjab¨. The relevant sections of law are sec. 415 through sec. 420. There is a page of Case Law, somewhat dry but interesting, on the web:https://pg.punjab.gov.pk/cheating_and_fraud

Sialkot City IS the capitol of Punjab, so a complaint might have some effect.

Bob

[GreenWood]

Via Pakistan I am not sure you will get very far.

The company is doing business via its registry in Malta

https://www.company-list.org/ayaan_prod ... mited.html

So you are most likely to get some reply from the Maltese, random pick

https://theshiftnews.com/2019/05/08/gra ... a-exposed/

... i.e. they are aware of this sort of business. Some companies are just money laundering fronts, for example. I would not go to EU, for various reasons, but others might.

The same company

https://www.ampliz.com/company/ayaan-pr ... d/91973208

Different product range (from link there)

https://ayaanproducts.com/

Others

https://www.exporthub.com/ayaan-product ... ofile.html

https://ayaanproducts.m.trustpass.aliba ... 4adagJt7fn


I will find out what I am able to about the other address in europe, I get the feeling it's a registry only, or possibly a warehouse, to seem more reliable.

[Ed.In. It's just a second floor apartment in suburbs


The business registry gives another address

https://diretorio.informadb.pt/Entidade ... TUGAL.html

Also an apartment it seems ]

[tstermitz]

I think Malta is the most corrupt country in Europe.

In any case, most fraud like this is done by small, fly-by-night operators. They'll just move on to some other object to sell.

[Nanohedron]

In any case, most fraud like this is done by small, fly-by-night operators. They'll just move on to some other object to sell.

I strongly suspect that Ayaan has a connection to Hakam Din. It's not so much that Ayaan is small and fly-by-night on its own, but that purveyors like Ayaan are simply disposable fronts for the mother corporation; that's why a second-floor suburban apartment in Malta. Could be an apartment in New Jersey, for all one knows. All you need is a website; no overhead required, just pics and info, such as it is - the supply's in good ol' Sialkot or maybe storage space on the West Coast. There was another front a while back, purportedly in Germany - I forget the name - and nobody with experience here was fooled; typical Pakistani-made "Celtic" unstruments are usually easy to identify even through the pixels because the designs tend to be consistent, and as expected, the trail led back to Hakam Din. The wares tend to be of a type: GHBs, flutes, bodhráns, kilts, harps, and other stuff for the thrifty-minded Celtophile hopeful. Apparently there's enough of a market to make it worth their while. Hakam Din itself is actually more diversified than that, but in general appears to cater mainly to musical interests, including those that are considered more conventional (like trumpets, etc).

What's new in this case, to the best of my knowledge, is the bait-and-switch tactic of using legitimate makers' good names to dupe the unsuspecting. Haven't seen that before. But hey - that's what fronts are for when you go to the Dark Side in the name of making a penny.

[bigsciota]

They (Hakam Din) also offer what I'm sure are excellent, pitch-perfect copies of historic flutes, although they don't come cheap: https://www.ebay.com/itm/165307057396 . But to be fair, a 5 key flute of such high quality for less than $700 all-in is quite a bargain!

[Flutern]

They (Hakam Din) also offer what I'm sure are excellent, pitch-perfect copies of historic flutes, although they don't come cheap: https://www.ebay.com/itm/165307057396 . But to be fair, a 5 key flute of such high quality for less than $700 all-in is quite a bargain!

And they have quite a sales pitch:

The six tone-holes on this flute correspond to the six holes on a tin whistle: if you already play whistle, you will not need to change your fingering to play the same music on a flute.

[Nanohedron]

They (Hakam Din) also offer what I'm sure are excellent, pitch-perfect copies of historic flutes, although they don't come cheap: https://www.ebay.com/itm/165307057396 . But to be fair, a 5 key flute of such high quality for less than $700 all-in is quite a bargain!

I'll admit that that one looks pretty darned good, but I have personal experience with the typical run of low-cost Pakistani factory-made flutes, so I would have to try it in the flesh before I gave it my thumbs-up (and much less would I shell out almost 700 clams just to do so). I've been burned enough not to associate how pretty it is with how much care was put into how it plays. I'd far rather pay much more for a flute from a known maker with steady good repute and a fan base.

If it's truly a good one, I applaud Hakam Din & Co, and implore them to abandon their usual business model and instead make more like it. I have asked this for years.

I would point out that the "boxed oval" embouchure is, as I understand it, a relatively modern innovation - so the degree to which this flute may be called a reproduction is up for debate. I don't have a personal problem with it in and of itself - it's not what I'd choose, but to each their own - yet in contradiction to what the info says, the flute consequently doesn't really comply with what goes into historically informed performances, as I understand the concept. I'd be happier if they said "Based on a d'Almaine example" (indeed, d'Almaine & Co didn't produce flutes; they were a retailer that sold a variety of musical instruments made by outside artists, and while d'Almaine put their commercial stamp on them, the actual maker may or may not be known). So no matter how good the flute may be, there's still some fast-and-loosery going on, and I have no choice but to think that, once again, it targets the uninformed.

I will welcome the day when we can embrace Hakam Din as part of the fold, but to this date they haven't shown me they have any incentive to rise above the practices they're usually known for.

[Terry McGee]

Hmmm, their Ebay site reports a 100% satisfaction rate. From what we all know as the diabolical shortcomings of their products, this seems extremely unlikely.

[david_h]

It might be useful for potential customers if maker's gave, in an obvious place on their websites, details of any authorised sellers or a statement that there were none. That way anyone researching what was on offer could quickly find out that other sources may be selling fakes.

At times I have bought low-cost things from Amazon where it wasn't worth further effort trying to work out if they were cheap Chinese copies. Once it was and I got the money back. Another time it was but I kept it as it seemed to work (and wasn't something that might burst into flame). I wonder what happens to returned fakes from China. Maybe the UK return address is an industrial unit with a waste disposal skip.

[Nanohedron]

Hmmm, their Ebay site reports a 100% satisfaction rate.

Of course it does, but here's something interesting: I even saw one offering where they flat-out demanded that people keep less-than-glowing reports to themselves! Imagine that.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Hmmm, their Ebay site reports a 100% satisfaction rate.

Of course it does, but here's something interesting: I even saw one offering where they flat-out demanded that people keep less-than-glowing reports to themselves! Imagine that.

Now there is a practice that has a lot of potential, and all one needs is the temerity to make what would normally be considered a totally ridiculous request! "Hey, don't spoil my vendor rating--that's not cool! So if you are unsatisfied, just suck it up." I wonder if it works?

[Nanohedron]

It gets an A for audacity.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Unfortunately, I've already heard from a player who acquired one of my "Essential Flutes" from this bogus vendor. He shared a photo of the table leg---uh....flute---that actually arrived in the mail. I've included one of the photos below (there were also a couple of nice shots of the interior of the bore, showing plenty of splinters from the hastily drilled finger holes--something that takes about ten seconds to remove if they wanted to bother).

His description of the flute: "...a perforated piece of wood from Pakistan that was reeking of kerosene and cheap lacquer and thoroughly unplayable."

The only potential bright spot (such as it is) is that he paid them via PayPal, to whom he has submitted a fraud report. PayPal might actually be able to snatch those funds back--they generally are pretty good about that sort of thing in my experience. In fact, that might represent a legitimate way to put pressure on this group. I don't know if PayPal would go as far as shutting down their account, or how effective a measure that might be, but it would be something.

I know that Casey was submitting a complaint to their domain name host, hoping to take a poke at them that way. Who knows if enough "inconvenience" can be brought to bear upon them to make them rethink this approach. I can't honestly fathom this type of amoral behavior so I don't have a sense of where the weak spots might be.

[GreenWood]

No need to hide your shame Geoffrey, everyone has to start somewhere.

[PB+J]

Sorry to hear that Geoffrey. It's pretty infuriating t have someone trafficking on your good name