The Flute Market : Supply & Demand

[Guinness]

Sorry folks but the flute market is simply not a very good macroeconomic indicator. Further clouding our "observations" is the assumption that C&F want ads, or even eBay, are a representative statistical sample. I do agree however that most WhoA manics and such will come out of their high eventually.

[Ronbo]

Same thing happens with every enthusiast/specialty website all the time. And you are right, Guinness, activities on boards like this are a very poor economic indicator or predictor. Except when I want to buy something. Then it disappears.

[Blackwood]

I've sold quite a few flutes (old and new) this past summer and I can say the market for quality instruments is very high.

Here are a few trends though I find of interest:

1. As a player there is no good place to go and try all the flutes you want. You can get different opinions, once in a while you can try someone else's flute and get a feel, but to sit down and compare different flutes from different periods and different makers in one setting (the only way to really get a solid comparison) is virtually impossible for most people. This fact will not change unless all the flutemakers get together for an annual convention (i doubt that will happen, but would be neat!).

So as a result, flute players will live by trial and error. Many will be happy with the flute they have because, frankly, they don't know any better. Unless you try other flutes how will you know? But then others are malcontents and will continue to try and search and fiddle. I'm guilty of this and this set me off on my own journey of constantly buying and selling flutes until I found my perfect flutes.

This trend will continue and people will buy and sell flutes on that basis. And this will keep the high end market up.

2. Current makers are getting better and better. When current makers started out they made flutes to copy the old ones, now they improve upon them. This means that, in my opinion, only the top condition surviving old instruments will retain or gain in value. The "firewood" will lose in value as they, relatively speaking, will lose appeal among players.

3. The lack of continued high end supply (you can't buy keyed flutes by top makers off the shelf) will ensure high $ values by the top makers.

4. Competition among makers. As I mentioned above only few people actually have a chance to qualitatively judge flute performance among makers. They are different camps and preferences, but tell me how many people are actually able to sit around a table and compare a current Wilkes, Olwell, Grinter, high end Rudall and hig end Boosey Pratten, and other makers and make a qualified comparison? Hardly anybody. But I think this will change over time. I can say that as these comparisons are made actual differences in quality are noted, and people are noticing, as evidenced what maker flutes are for sale more often than others.

5. Future demand. Popularity of performers such as Lunasa, Grada, Flook, McGoldrick, Molloy and others continue to increase exposure of wooden flutes to larger audiences increasing the potential market of players. It's a good thing.

[Flutered]

This means that, in my opinion, only the top condition surviving old instruments will retain or gain in value. The "firewood" will lose in value as they, relatively speaking, will lose appeal among players.

That could be the way it is going: the implication of course is that many of us, who have serviceable instruments but which are nothing special may not hope to get anything like the original investment back. And why should we, wehn there are many to choose from?

[Blackwood]

That could be the way it is going: the implication of course is that many of us, who have serviceable instruments but which are nothing special may not hope to get anything like the original investment back. And why should we, wehn there are many to choose from?

I would tend to agree with this. I think there will be a decrease in value in older flutes in the tier 2 and 3 category, meaning Rudalls, Prattens etc. that are in less than prime condition and playability.

[johnkerr]

As a player there is no good place to go and try all the flutes you want. You can get different opinions, once in a while you can try someone else's flute and get a feel, but to sit down and compare different flutes from different periods and different makers in one setting (the only way to really get a solid comparison) is virtually impossible for most people. This fact will not change unless all the flutemakers get together for an annual convention (i doubt that will happen, but would be neat!).

There is one place where a flute player can go and be able to try out a variety of different flutes in the space of a day or two. Actually, several places, because I'm referring here to the various Irish music summer schools and weekends that occur throughout America, in Ireland and probably on the European continent and Australia as well. If you enroll in a flute class at one of these schools, not only will you help your own playing but you'll also meet other flute players who are likely playing flutes different from yours. Unless you're a total wanker about it, they will probably be willing to let you have a blow on their flute if you ask them. If the class is taught by one of the really big-name teachers such as Kevin Crawford, Catherine McEvoy, June McCormack, etc, it will likely have up to twenty students there from all over the place, meaning even more different flutes in the room for you to possibly get to play. Often, flute makers such as Patrick Olwell, John Gallagher, Michael Grinter, Eamonn Cotter, Terry McGee or Jon C will pop in at some point during the week, and they are always ready to talk flute with you (although not necessarily to sell you a flute) while they're there. (I have actually met all of those makers I named at summer schools over the course of the last 10 years or so, and have even ended up buying flutes from a couple of them.) Again, the less of a wanker you are the better your success in these situations will be, but that's pretty much true of life in general, isn't it? The old saying "If you build it, they will come" doesn't just apply to the field of dreams, it also applies to the flute of dreams. Go where the flutes are, don't just sit around reading about them on Chiff and Fipple or waiting for them to come to you. It is actually possible to "try before you buy", provided you do your part.

[Blackwood]

John,

Fair point, but again most players can't do that either due to lack of time or money or both ( sorry honey no summer vacation with you and the kids this year; i'm going to a flute school instead!). But to your point, it is a good possibility in lieu of a convention

Sven

[dow]

John,

Fair point, but again most players can't do that either due to lack of time or money or both ( sorry honey no summer vacation with you and the kids this year; i'm going to a flute school instead!). But to your point, it is a good possibility in lieu of a convention

Sven

Interesting thread. Actually my wife and son went with me to the Augusta Irish week this year. Both had a great time, although neither played any music to speak of. Beth took a pottery class, and Lane was in a kids class. It made for a wonderful vacation week for all of us, and both of them have been ready to go back almost since we got the bags unpacked from the trip.

On the subject of trying out different flutes, I played at leas one example of each of these maker's flutes:

Terry Mcgee
Sam Murray
John Gallagher
Pat Olwell
Casey Burns
Rob Forbes
and some others that I can't recall

[Gordon]

[quote="Jayhawk
The economy really is painful for flute buyers here in the US, especially if you are considering buying a flute from outside the US. The exchange rates for both the euro and pound really favor overseas buyers. Mortgage and general loan default rates are at or near record levels, etc. Overall, just not much room for flute purchases for quite a lot of folks.

That said, and this will probably get me flamed, I do think that there are sufficient new flutes and flute makers on the market that the price of most used flutes is too high. Most items depreciate somewhat, yet we usually hope (me included) to sell our used flutes for new or close to new prices. Why? Sure we love them, but it's not like more will not be made (unless the maker has passed away). Dave Williams flutes, makers with multi-year waits, etc. - these seem to have some economic reason to sell for as new prices. Otherwise, when I'm looking for a used flute, I want to save money over a new one otherwise I'd just wait a few months and buy from the maker directly - after all, aren't they improving with each flute they make?

Fire away...(putting on flak jacket)

Eric[/quote]

No flak from this corner. I've always thought the used flute market was over-priced. Most owners try to sell for the same or more (sometimes much more) than the makers' charge, arguing only that the buyer is jumping the wait-list time period. Fair enough, but the flute is used, the maker is no longer in the loop, and, honestly, with a few exceptions, there are simply too many great flutes out there to be spending in the same ballpark as a new flute. Part of the lure of buying a used flute (or, really, a used anything), is the bargain. I'd much rather deal with a maker directly if I'm going to spend thousands of dollars. Yeah, I have to wait -- ironically, most wait lists seem to be getting longer, which in itself says something -- but if I'm going for the best flute I can buy, I'd rather deal with the person that made me a flute. Otherwise, I want a bargain.

Antiques are in a slightly different category, but some of what I just said applies there, too -- for a player, rather than a collector, a flute really has to be superior, or intangibly inspiring, to merit some of the prices I've seen them go for.

But none of this complaining will get me a less expensive six or eight key in the near future, I expect. Maybe one made out of a corn stalk...

[s1m0n]

There is one place where a flute player can go and be able to try out a variety of different flutes in the space of a day or two.

I'm not sure how useful even that is. "Trying" an unfamiliar flute for less than several days will tell you little more than how similar that flute is to the one you already play.

[johnkerr]

I'm not sure how useful even that is. "Trying" an unfamiliar flute for less than several days will tell you little more than how similar that flute is to the one you already play.

In the context of this discussion, which is how someone who's thinking of becoming a buyer in this glut of a used-flute market can make a decision on whether or not to buy a particular flute that's on offer, it's a data point. And that's better than nothing. In a situation where I'm looking for a flute and there's a used flute by maker X for sale by someone clear across the country, if I've had a blow on a flute by maker X at some point in my playing life I have some basis on which to decide whether I want to buy that used flute now. Otherwise, I don't.

The concern being expressed here is all about owners of flutes not being able to get back the value of those flutes when they decide to sell them, often because they are "upgrading" to yet another flute. Often, the flute of desire in the upgrade is one the player hasn't ever actually played. They're just going by reputation or word of mouth in deciding that they want it or need it - as may well have been the case when they acquired the flute(s) they're trying to sell and recoup value from. It's my feeling that if buyers of flutes have actually played many different flutes, even if only briefly, they will have a much better idea whether or not any particular flute buying or selling transaction makes sense for them. The alternative is to purchase multiple flutes, as either a serial monogamist or polygamist, and then run the risk of not being able to unload flutes that are ultimately found wanting (for whatever reason) without recouping their purchase price. So, in essence, the choice is between using one's time and money to get out and meet and play with other flute players, trying out many different flutes as a byproduct, or using one's time and money to accumulate multiple flutes in isolation, and then determine which flute(s) are worth keeping and playing, also in relative isolation. To me, it makes more sense to become a better flute player by meeting and playing with as many other musicians as possible than it does to become the musical equivalent of a coin collector. Obviously, not everyone agrees with me on that.

[sbfluter]

Even just seeing one and holding it in your hands is a big help as opposed to simply buying it from a picture. Man, these derlin flutes are heavy! You could bludgen a man to death with a single blow! I had no idea what the material was like. You could run over it with a truck I think.

[Denny]

doubles as a riding crop, impervious to rain

they're great! ain't they!

[skh]

I'm not sure how useful even that is. "Trying" an unfamiliar flute for less than several days will tell you little more than how similar that flute is to the one you already play.

Depends on the people and on the setting, I guess. I'm just back from a 5 day workshop (waves to Gabriel and onkel), and we frequently had toots on each other's flutes between lessons. So I had the chance to play the same flutes, even if only for a few minutes each time, several times over a period of five days, which was enough to fall in love with that boxwood Aebi, but not to the same extent with flutes from other makers. And maybe just as important, we heard the same flutes played by several people, which illustrates well how much of the sound comes from the flute and how much from the player.

cheers,
Sonja

[Denny]

it beats the heck outta pictures & sound clips, dunnit