Difference between irish flute and transverse flute?

[Guinness]

...Calling the antique originals "Irish" is a misapprehension...

It's a bit of that and a bit of cultural appropriation. (In all fairness, this happens with most cultures.)

[segv]

But I was a bit breathtaken when I heard some Altan tunes where they played irish flute.

I've been thinking of getting a low whistle in the future, but now I think I'd rather get an irish flute for lower keys.

Uh oh - there goes another one!

[jemtheflute]

Further to my last....... (this has been bubbling up inside me in the intervening hours and just has to be vented....... ):-

No-one would call a Baroque flute or a Boehm flute or a bansuri type flute being used for ITM and played in an ITM idiomatic way an "Irish flute" (and there are people who do so). So why should a Simple System flute be so appropriated either? I take Guinness's point about cultural appropriation etc., for sure, and ultimately one cannot usually stop changes in perception and usage, however wrong-headed or inappropriate one may deem them or be able to demonstrate that they are!

None of which really improves on talasiga's list of sub groups of transverse flute or on Cork's explication. Pedant that I am I will continue to resist the idea that there is such a thing as an "Irish" flute. I think there are flutes that are technically and stylistically well adapted to the ITM style of flute playing and there has been a very recent and highly specialised resurgence of manufacture of such instruments that has sought to serve the specific ITM market, but relatively few of the makers doing this are resident in or come from Ireland. It may be because I happen to know about the history and development of the flute, but to me ITM is chiefly played upon English style C19th Simple System flutes or upon modern derivatives thereof. The flutes are not "Irish", though the use made of them certainly is - so if the term "Irish flute" means anything, it is the cultural assemblage of ideas, material (music) and practise (technique) with the artefact (flute) - the music being played in idiom upon a flute of whatever technical description, not the artefact itself standing alone.

[Cork]

...I will continue to resist the idea that there is such a thing as an "Irish" flute...

Please, perhaps there could be such a thing as an "Irish" flute.

For instance, it seems there was a revival of Irish music, several decades ago, but the then available supply of appropriate, transverse flutes could have gradually diminished, to the point where a demand for them could overwhelm any available supply, and so a new hybrid was born, now more commonly known as the keyless, six holed "Irish" flute.

That doesn't say that much earlier flutes couldn't have been used for such a purpose, yet perhaps there indeed could be such a thing as an "Irish" flute.

;-)

[s1m0n]

No-one would call a Baroque flute or a Boehm flute or a bansuri type flute being used for ITM and played in an ITM idiomatic way an "Irish flute" (and there are people who do so). So why should a Simple System flute be so appropriated either?

Fiddles change names according to the music they're playing. Why no flutes?

[Cubitt]

The term "Irish flute" simply refers to that classification of flute that is used for little or nothing else but ITM. I think it is safe to say that the classical flute that existed in the 19th Century would be all but forgotten now, were it not for ITM. And the keyless flutes made by several members of this site would not even exist.

Is the term "Irish flute" appropriate? I guess Casey and Terry and a few others might be able to tell us.

[Denny]

klezmer & charanga

[jemtheflute]

The term "Irish flute" simply refers to that classification of flute that is used for little or nothing else but ITM. I think it is safe to say that the classical flute that existed in the 19th Century would be all but forgotten now, were it not for ITM. And the keyless flutes made by several members of this site would not even exist.

Not at all.

Whilst not at the centre of the Period Instrument/"Historically Informed" performance movement's activities, Romantic era multi-keyed Simple System flutes most certainly are in use by such people, though admittedly there was a hiatus between the 1920s and the 1970s when very few classical musicians of any kind would have played them and ITM players were the main users. However, I do not think they would have been forgotten outside ITM.

For instance, it seems there was a revival of Irish music, several decades ago, but the then available supply of appropriate, transverse flutes could have gradually diminished, to the point where a demand for them could overwhelm any available supply, and so a new hybrid was born, now more commonly known as the keyless, six holed "Irish" flute.

Loads around on eBay just now!

I do agree that the market for the modified/retro versions was/is driven by ITM, and said so. I don't think that makes the things themselves peculiarly Irish. As I said, it is how they are used that is distinctive...... and using a full 8-keyer, antique or repro, for ITM is just as (or more) "Irish" as using one of its denuded offspring, but doesn't divorce the artefact itself from its full history (which of course and importantly includes use in ITM). Call the derivatives "flutes made for ITM" if you must, but it always irks me when I see/hear antique instruments that have never had anything to do with Ireland or ITM (until I get my hands on 'em! ) being labelled "Irish" because of the ignorance of the person so labelling them. (I'm glad such people know of ITM enough to make the association, but sad they don't know more about the instruments and their origins and think the metal Boehm flute is THE flute.)

Lastly, to my knowledge a great many classical violinists refer to their violins as "fiddles" and the oft quoted dictum that " 'violin' is classical, 'fiddle' is folk" really is not borne out in fact. It's a bit like calling a guitar an "axe" or a mouth organ/harmonica a "harp".

[Rhadge]

It's an interesting discussion you're having.
I for one do not care about the name though, it could be called poodle dog flute and I still want one. :-O

But from what I gather, the flute played by ITM bands is just a simple-system 19th century flute. So, is there any sound difference between those, and the newer keyless flute?
I'm not going to buy a flute for a while since I'm concentrating on the whistle, but I'd like to know what kind of simple-system flute would fit me best, when I get one in the future...

[Cork]

...Call the derivatives "flutes made for ITM" if you must, but it always irks me when I see/hear antique instruments that have never had anything to do with Ireland or ITM (until I get my hands on 'em! :D ) being labelled "Irish" because of the ignorance of the person so labelling them...

I can appreciate such ignorance.

However, apparently an ITM flute market could eventually create what's now known as the modern, keyless, six holed "Irish" flute.

These modern flutes aren't to be confused with any of the much older flutes, of course, but perhaps history could know them simply as Irish flutes.

So, perhaps Irish flutes could be a more modern thing.

[jemtheflute]

It's an interesting discussion you're having.
I for one do not care about the name though, it could be called poodle dog flute and I still want one.

But from what I gather, the flute played by ITM bands is just a simple-system 19th century flute. So, is there any sound difference between those, and the newer keyless flute?
I'm not going to buy a flute for a while since I'm concentrating on the whistle, but I'd like to know what kind of simple-system flute would fit me best, when I get one in the future...

Another big question with ramifications. (Aren't they all?????)

To try to answer in the spirit it is asked, though, (difficult): most modern derivations/repros seek to emulate the "best" of the antiques according to the aesthetic preferred in ITM, which is for a strong, reedy, woody tone with a driveable low register. There are antiques with such properties, obviously: not all modern derivations live up to the originals (plenty of poor ones around), or they may be copies of different styles (there were many, both in construction and tone character). Some modern flutes perform better than all but the best antiques on tone, and many have intonation (tuning) modified ("improved") from the originals to modern demands/taste - the "improvements" are chiefly due to better understanding of the acoustics and to the fact that modern use does not require adaptability to so wide a pitch range (anything between A=430 Hz up to 455 Hz in mid-late C19th!) so flutes can be built more specifically to be closer in tune with themselves in equal temperament at A=440Hz than was feasible in the originals - fewer compromises, though still plenty! Also, some modern flutes have other deliberate style choices made that limit them or alter their character compared to antiques (e.g. absence of keys making it impossible to strengthen weak notes by venting keys, "ergonomic" tone-hole placement to suit small hands, etc.).

So, if and when you want to dip your toe in the flutey water, you have many things to consider, just as you do with whistles only more so. Your budget will be a factor, and your objectives musically. At this juncture it would be very hard to advise you anyway. It is in any case difficult to do so without knowing more about a person physically (what you can actually practically make use of). You will have to get your hands on some flutes to see what fits you physically. As with any instrument, once you can play you will inevitably want to try different bits of kit until you are content (maybe, probably, never). Aesthetically you seem to like the late Frankie Kennedy's sound as you refer to Altan recordings. Frankie played fully keyed antiques, so far as I recall, though others may be able to correct me on that. He was an exceptionally fine fluter and a grand model to wish to mould yourself upon in due course. You wouldn't necessarily need flutes closely similar to his to make a similar sound - whether you would ever be cable of doing so would have more to do with your aptitudes and effort than with the instruments.

[Rhadge]

Thanks for making long informative answers to my perhaps vague questions.

I guess when the time comes, I'll just try different flutes and see what fits.

Physically, I don't have very big lungs, and my fingers are long and more thin than "stocky".

[Cork]

...But from what I gather, the flute played by ITM bands is just a simple-system 19th century flute. So, is there any sound difference between those, and the newer keyless flute?...

True, much of the fingering has remained the same, but the tuning pitches of flutes have changed since the 19th century.

Since about the year 1940, "standard" pitch has been defined as A=440 Hz, or as the tone of A at 440 cycles per second, of sonic vibration.

Also, by 1940 there were virtually no wood flutes being made, so a wood flute of before that date might not be of A=440 pitch, let a buyer beware.

I'm not knocking old flutes, but if your interest could be in playing in contemporary circles, then perhaps a modern flute, with an A=440 pitch, could serve you better.

[G1]

... And then there's some folk who refer to my keyless 6-hole simple-system conical flute as a 'purty soundin' whistle'!

Most others call it a flute or an Irish flute - but they're not musicians. It's a popular (mis?)conception.

[jemtheflute]

... And then there's some folk who refer to my keyless 6-hole simple-system conical flute as a 'purty soundin' whistle'!

Most others call it a flute or an Irish flute - but they're not musicians. It's a popular (mis?)conception.

Thread digression - BTW, G1, your old silver Gem went to a good new home last week - I'd fully overhauled and cleaned it (and its case) and repadded it. It now belongs to a morris-dancing lady doctor in NW Wales who played Boehm flute to a good standard in her youth but had her own flute stolen years ago and wants to get back into playing on a decent quality instrument. I only made a very modest profit overall - Gem's don't command much respect/of a price these days, but I didn't lose out moneywise - though the small profit hardly fairly represented the hours I spent shimming bl***y Boehm pads and fiddling with it!

More pertinent to Rhadge's thread, I've noticed recently that your original utter satisfaction with the Seery keyless you swapped the Gem for hasn't lasted quite for ever! I've got a couple of "interesting" antique 8-keys nearly ready to go........... (That do play at 440, Cork!)