help - my flute is stuck!

[lws]

Kurt! You rock! At first I had no idea what you were talking about with the slapping, but my husband figured it out... and the flute came apart! Of course, we didn't try just twisting it first, so maybe it finally just hit the right number of hours it needed to loosen itself, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and officially say that Kurt's Patented Miracle Flute Cure did the trick! Phew. Now I just have to hope that breaking it in even more slowly and making sure that it's properly oiled, humidified, etc. will keep this from happening again. I can't wait to try playing again tomorrow!

Thank you all again for all of your ideas and suggestions.

--lws

[MTGuru]

Damn ... Does this mean I'm not getting my ticket to Dublin?

[Denny]

maybe, haven't fixed the cause yet!

Might not want to unpack yet...

[kmag]

I am glad it worked. I was more worried about you doing something extreme to get it apart. I don't know if you bought the flute used or if it has not been played in a while, but my guess is the male part of the tenon soaked up more moisture than the female part causing uneven expansion between the two parts. I always put a little cork grease on the end of the male tenon to cut down on end grain absorption. I hope this works since I am sure you would like to play more and worry less.
Kurt

[lws]

I definitely wouldn't have done anything remotely extreme to get it apart. I'm not nearly enough of a risk taker for that! I'll be a bit more liberal with my cork grease next time and we'll see what happens.

--lws

[Terry McGee]

So, Terry, if the exterior of the flute has been kept out in the air in a dry heated environment, wouldn't that have a shrinking effect to the wood, and possibly cause a tight joint too, or is that not how the wood reacts? Especially since the flute is new and in the break in stage, supposedly not being played extensively?

I'd expect keeping a flute in a dry heated environment would loosen the joints, following the same (but opposite!) reasoning I gave previously. The wood of both tenon and socket shrink, so you'd expect no change in overall tightness so far. But the compression the normally tight ring is exerting on the mouth of the socket will reduce (sometimes to the point where the ring falls off!), so the socket doesn't reduce in diameter quite as far, and the joint becomes looser.

What's harder to be sure of of course is the dynamics of all this. If you move suddenly from one clime to another, all of this gets set in motion, but may happen at different rates. The thin tenon will probably react faster than the thicker socket wall. Tricky, eh?

Or is it just more of a sure thing that it is just the tenons swelling-and the case most all the time with this problem? I do understand what you are saying about the two swellings on the barrel and tenon-and thanks for explaining that-but that I imagine is the most likely possiblity if it got wet enough to cause the swelling in the first place.

Thanks, Barry

Yes, I think the applied wetness (from breath condensate) is far more likely to be the problem than atmospheric moisture. It's 100% wet, and it's applied directly to the surfaces in question (the inside of socket and outside of tenon). If the clearance here has been left a little close by the maker (and we all I'm sure like to keep those clearances to a minimum) a little local surface swelling is enough to generate an astounding level of friction. Well, stiction, rather than friction.

So that's why I suggested and reiterate that lws should examine the surface of the tenon for any signs of stiction (like shinyness), and have them attended to. Or at least get into the habit of pulling the flute apart and drying the tenon and socket every 30mins or so until it's proven safe!

Terry

[lws]

Terry - I meant to ask before: Would the shininess be something that would appear after just a few times assembling/disassembling the flute (maybe 5-6 times since I received it), or is that something that tends to appear over a longer period of time? I don't notice any differences in texture/shine around that tenon yet, but I'm definitely keeping an eye on it now.

- lws

[greenspiderweb]

Thank you Terry for the lessons in wooden flute physics-much appreciated! One day we may understand more about our flutes because of your help and guidance-a real blessing, to be sure!

Be well, Barry

[Terry McGee]

Terry - I meant to ask before: Would the shininess be something that would appear after just a few times assembling/disassembling the flute (maybe 5-6 times since I received it), or is that something that tends to appear over a longer period of time? I don't notice any differences in texture/shine around that tenon yet, but I'm definitely keeping an eye on it now.

- lws

No. The wood parts of the tenon (on each side of the lapping) should never touch the socket (except perhaps lightly in passing). The lapping should keep the tenon centred in the socket, and a small clearance should always exist between the wood of socket and tenon. When the wood surfaces touch, the joint will feel grabby when rotated. If they don't, it should feel smooth, even if quite tight. Watch out for the grabby feeling - it may be your first warning that something is up.

Thank you Terry for the lessons in wooden flute physics-much appreciated! One day we may understand more about our flutes because of your help and guidance-a real blessing, to be sure!

Be well, Barry

Heh heh, I just hope I always get it right! Thanks, Barry.

Terry

[Flutered]

It's an Olwell pratten keyless blackwood ... I live in Dublin and I'm worried that the change in humidity from VA to here etc.

I thought blackwood was supposed to be fairly stable? There have been several threads here in the past relating to this problem with boxwood which seems to swell more and forgets as someone put it, that it's not part of the tree anymore! But I thought blackwood was much less prone to this. Does this come down to seasoning the wood blanks, or the sudden change when a new flute is suddenly filled with warm moist air or just luck depending on the tree or part thereof used?

It's a good reason to buy local, ain't it. I'd reckon you'd be less likely to have this wee problem if the flute was made in Ireland. Not that that's much help!!

[dcopley]

I thought blackwood was supposed to be fairly stable? . . . . Does this come down to seasoning the wood blanks, or the sudden change when a new flute is suddenly filled with warm moist air or just luck depending on the tree or part thereof used?

Blackwood is more stable than boxwood but it still swells and shrinks with changes in moisture content. The flute maker has to walk a fine line in deciding what final moisture content to aim for in the seasoning process. If the wood is seasoned too dry it increases the risk of swelling and stuck joints if the flute ends up in a moister environment. If the wood is not seasoned to a dry enough level, the risk is that lined head and barrel joints will crack should the flute end up in a more dry environment. My inclination is to go toward the dry side, because a stuck joint is almost always reversible without any permanent damage, while a cracked head joint is more serious. Either problem should be uncommon, but we are dealing with natural materials and every piece of wood is unique. I'm glad to see that this particular problem had a happy ending.

Dave Copley
Loveland, Ohio

[Flutered]

Thanks Dave for that info: BTW, I see that Hammy Hamilton has a wee brass? ring on his tenons. Does this help to constrain the swelling of the tenon or just put it potentially under pressure - leaves a very thin tenon end of wood <1mm. Whatever, it works on mine as I've never noticed any problems in that regard - joints always very consistent. Come to think of it, maybe there's sense in this as the less end grain showing, the less moisture can be absorbed - therefore, less swelling?

[Diego Lolic]

Don't worry, my advice is to leave the headjoint just like that, don't force the instrument. My Lehart's got stuck too, in the same part, and Gilles (the maker) told me to leave it like that and swab the flute completly each time I played, opening it from the barrel and the foot.
I've been playing for a long time, and this mechanism hasn't bring me any trouble (No cracks, nothing) Till today, it's still stuck, but I really don't care. If some day it gets loose I think using thread isn't too bad, and if your cork gets rotten you can always go to some woodwind maker (Oboes, Clarinets, etc) ..

That's my advice, regarding my experience, I felt the same desperation, but relax and try not to force your flute that much.

Take care!
Diego.

[anna288music]

A bit late but here is my answer. The bottom joint stayed stuck for more than a day on my blackwood flute, no metal. Warmed it under my armpit between shirt and jacket for just under 2 hours. It (got warmer without getting soggier as it would if I had kept playing and) came apart.