Can anyone identify this old flute? RESTORATION PIX POSTED!

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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by keithsandra »

The following comments are from an internationally renowned flute maker who produces stunningly beautiful wooden flutes:

"Its our impression that this flute is probably not very old. The key is in the German style, and though it is hard to tell from the photos, it looks like a rosewood or some kind of Pakistani or Indian timber. There seems to be a growth of mildew on the surface, so it must have been stored in damp conditions. The bore will also be subject to same, so be careful about breathing in at the embouchure. Have you been able to test it with a Korg, to determine the tuning, and see how accurate it seems?


"Off the bat, without having the flute in hand, we would say not to spend much money on the restoration of the instrument.


"It might be worth your while cleaning it yourself (after taking off the key, and removing the cork with a dowel and the endcap).
Proceed by first wiping it inside and out with 1:1 bleach to remove spores (and with Q-tips round the tone-holes and embouchure) and wipe it dry. When it it thouroughly dry from that operation, get a vacuum or shop-vac sucker running and sand off the varnish down to clean wood, over the sucker, with no rougher than 400 grit to start, 600 would be safer, going to 800 once the varnish is off, (1200 after oiling), being careful not to deepen the finger holes or change the embouchure edges. Otherwiser you could sand with unadulterated raw pure tung oil (Lee Valley) up to 800 grit. Either way you want to avoid getting the dust into your lungs not knowing what the wood or varnish are made of.


"We use tung oil in the surface sanding with wet-and-dry, fine paper doesn't clog and you use less of it . You can sand the interior of the headjoint, but whatever you do, do not sand the interior of the center joint bore, that will change the taper and could ruin any intentional perturbations, changing the intonation, for what its worth. If the mould has digested some of the interior wood, and you find it soft and "furry" in the bore, than forget it... you can try sanding it, but then you may have to experiment on re-tuning the flute if it. Or take two aspirins and call us in the morning! :-)


"Once the instrument is clean and sanded, and ready for oiling, drop it into pure Tung for a day, and wet sand it with 1200 once its out of the oil. We do not use almond oil at all, as it has a tendency to go rancid, some peeps are allergic to it, and it can clump and render the bore gooey! ...and mould like it too! When you finished your final sanding of the flute after its been in the tung oil, be sure to wipe it completely dry of all oil, in all the nooks and crannies, like the seat of the Eb seat, and the bottoms of the sockets and of course the bore.


"If you are anywhere nearby, come see us at the shop, and we will take a look at it.


"Cheers and good luck"


"PS. If the windings are for pipes, they are windings which do not get wet, and thus the expansion of the thread thickness with condensation and moisture is not a consideration, so it is made out of hemp. If hemp gets wet, it thickens, (that's why they use it in plumbing) In flutes, with the amount of moisture that finds its way into every crevice, the hemp can expand enough to bust the socket. Use only waxed silk thread, or polyester if you cannot find waxed silk, on the tenon combings, or you may crack open the socket along the grain lines, see photo."
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by I.D.10-t »

Seems like a bit of an aggressive approach.




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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by jemtheflute »

Generally good info and advice, but I'd suggest there's no need for all that fuss with oil, though - or even bleach. I usually clean old flutes with methylated spirits and cotton rags (and a thin dowel) and then just re-oil with bore oil when well cleaned - no soaking, just feather application. Once thoroughly cleaned, it may well not even need sanding off either, unless someone has actually varnished it. Not saying that advice is "wrong", just worst case/overkill unless proven necessary.
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by keithsandra »

Agreed, Jem. The reply from another poster about the tough response also gets my approval. I replied to the advice partly as follows: "The self restoration you propose though easy to an expert like you suggests a ghastly and unwelcome learning curve to someone like me."

Your aproach seems more practical though still not enticing, Jem, once I've determined the flute is playable. Jennifer Cluff the professional Boehm flutist put me in touch with Robert Bigio the all round flutist and archivist who put me in touch with Gerald Brown of Victoria, BC. Gerald is an antique furniture restorer of some renown, a life long musician focused on flute playing. He's coming to one of the islands round here next week and we plan to meet so he can view the flute. He asked for the details and pix and I sent them off straight away. Once I know what key it's in at first hand and whether it's worth making playable again, we can go from there.

Interestingly, Gerald said by the sound of it he would want to cut out the repaired crack in the barrel and scarf in a matching piece of wood with marine epoxy, a flexible adhesive I'm familiar with, designed to repel water, oil and grease.

Thanks again.

Best wishes,

Keith.
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by Tonehole »

Latticino wrote:
If you look at this modern makers (Von Huene) version of a Grenser traverso, you can see where I went wrong:

Image

Oh well, at least I got the wood and key material right... :P

That Von Huene Grenser is just incredible. It's surprising how loud it can be for a baroque traverso. The bottom D seems to play just slightly flat without lipping, otherwise its intonation is impeccable. I just wish I could maintain my embouchure consistently for it.

Keithsandra - I read this thread and was amazed at the amount of energy you've put into what is a diatonic folk flute of indeterminate pitch. It's the kind of thing I would do :)

Hope it rewards you, although looking at its small 9mm embouchure and diminutive toneholes, it perhaps wouldn't motivate me too much.

Best of luck with your exploration!
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by keithsandra »

Well,Tonehole, I certainly think I prefer Pratten type flutes from the little experience I have of owning them, but perhaps this quest is my destiny leading me to a new flute experience? Certainly the steady, loud, clear sound coming from the removed headjoint and the enthusiastic, expert advice I'm getting hurries me on. I'll let you know where the adventure leads. Onwards and upwards, ey?

Best wishes,

Keith.
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by Tonehole »

keithsandra wrote:Well,Tonehole, I certainly think I prefer Pratten type flutes from the little experience I have of owning them, but perhaps this quest is my destiny leading me to a new flute experience? Certainly the steady, loud, clear sound coming from the removed headjoint and the enthusiastic, expert advice I'm getting hurries me on. I'll let you know where the adventure leads. Onwards and upwards, ey?

Best wishes,

Keith.
Hi Keith,

are you referring to the loud grunty first octave volume sound from the Pratten?

I was surprised when I heard one played in front of me. Most of the sound clips really compress the sound and make flute music sound very unappealing compared to the live music.

It's great discovering another flute with its own sound character. I've been working on restoring my wooden relic of a baroque traverso (boxwood! 440Hz pitch!) for a few months now. Just had the silver key hot soldered and it's looking splendid. There are two more cracks to seal, after remoisturising the whole flute slowly for months.

I posted about marine epoxy a while back - essentially, I gave up with it, and decided to go for plain liquid wood/rot remover/sealant. For an amateur, all you have to do is dilute it and rake it into the crevice until it fills, and then pare off the excess before it sets. Ronseal is quite good too, but perhaps I have my sights set on standards lower than the angels :)
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by keithsandra »

Tonehole: I was referring to the sounds of my Tipple D's (one of which has an embouchure shape I don't use and is with a new owner in Australia now), and my African blackwood Brent Santin D. The Tipple A's tone is even darker.

The Tipples' wedge and cylinderical bodies give me an immediate, responsive tone that someone else who played my D the other day called "reedy". It's undeniably loud yet can be as soft as you like. A friend gave an involuntary "Oh yes ..." when he heard the Tipple's throaty low D that I feel in my fingers. The conoid Santin's notes are easy but need to be pushed out as compared to the Tipple's notes that just drop out. (I think that's someone else's description about the difference between cylinderical and conoid flutes). The Santin makes itself felt through my fingers too, but on the whole it's is not as Prattenish as the Tipple, though it's sweeter and more complex. Both the Tipples and Santins are larger holed and bigger bored than the one I'm wanting to restore, so this restored flute will be very different for me. We'll see if I like it.

Best,

Keith.
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? RESTORED FLUTE PIX!!!

Post by keithsandra »

Pictures of the restored "No name, no number" old wooden flute are on the yellow cloth background. The pre-restored photos are on a green cloth background.

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/25223629 ... 949-23175/

The restorer is Gregory Brown of Victoria, BC, a flute player since childhood. His flute collection includes an original fully silver keyed RnR Boehm of black cocus and an 18 carat gold Boehm.

He made a new end cap, cleaned the bores, then sandpapered them lightly with a very fine sandpaper, polished all the German silver, repadded the key, fixed two cracks inside and out without having to cut and replace, rewound the tenons with 100% red Chinese "Xnonok" thread. He only gave the flute a quick wipe with a dry cloth as he says Cocus is very greasy and doesn't need oiling. The restored flute was shown to the head of the flute department of the music college at the University of Victoria who thinks it's C1850, probably later than that. The sliding tuner partially lines the head joint, an indication it could be French. The round embouchure sound hole is unusually large, giving the flute good volume without losing any of it's sweetness. It's very easy to play, strikingly better looking than the photos show and already feels like a daily go-to flute, a real keeper.

Best wishes,

Keith.
Last edited by keithsandra on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by an seanduine »

Lovely flute. Lovely cocus wood. One way to tell if it came through French workshops from the last half of the 19th Century would be a close examination of the tuning against a program such as Flutini. One artifact which may show up will be a flat low F#. I have several flutes, a six keyed flute, and an eight keyed flute which are of apparently French make. Both are from the late 1800's, possibly as late as 1880, with the flat F#, and an only moderately to negligible flat foot. Overall good flutes, very responsive and nimble, playing well at A=440 Hz. They all have very similar cocus. The French seem to have had a connection, possibly through Spanish Cuba, for this tonewood.
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? SEE RESTORATION!

Post by keithsandra »

an seanduine wrote:Lovely flute. Lovely cocus wood. One way to tell if it came through French workshops from the last half of the 19th Century would be a close examination of the tuning against a program such as Flutini. One artifact which may show up will be a flat low F#. I have several flutes, a six keyed flute, and an eight keyed flute which are of apparently French make. Both are from the late 1800's, possibly as late as 1880, with the flat F#, and an only moderately to negligible flat foot. Overall good flutes, very responsive and nimble, playing well at A=440 Hz. They all have very similar cocus. The French seem to have had a connection, possibly through Spanish Cuba, for this tonewood.
Congrats :thumbsup:
Thanks! The Flutini does show a flat F# but a dead-on Low D with only slightly sharp G, so it looks and sounds great to me. But I have to inspect the Flutini and what I'm supposed to do with it more closely. Hopefully I'll find someone who knows exactly what it's trying to tell me ... I've had no technical training, just taught myself to read music and wrestle with any notes printed way above and below the lines ...

As you say, this flute is very respnsive and nimble. It has an authoritatively sweet tone, too. I played it the first day I got it at a dinner party and got the impression the enthusiastic response was more to do with this tone than my fumbling about with finger memory from my other, comparitively cruder flutes. It has a nice, assertive volume too, though I don't know how well it would do in a session. Going by looks, care in design and manufacture, tone and tuning, audience response, as well as feel, this is one very classy flute, very cultured, very French ... Magnifique!

Best wishes,
Keith.
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by Clinton »

Hi Keith,

It sounds like you managed to get yourself a great session flute there! You might want to explore some typical traverso cross fingerings for some of the accidentials. A few thoughts:

For the slightly flat F#, are you playing it with the Eb key depressed? As this is a classical era flute, it is probably (Jem?) designed to have this key open for most of the notes other than D. If this is the case, then having the Eb key open should really open up the sometimes stuffy E as well. I would be interested in seing how hard it is for you to play an Fnat with the XXX XOX fingering, likely with some lipping down as well.

For the sharp G, you might try experimenting with some variation of XXX OOX or XXX OXO (with or without the Eb key) and see if that brings it down a smidgen without killing the tone too much. Or just learn to lip it a bit!

(slight thread hijack). Does anyone else find that they play/finger some notes differently depending on which key they are playing in, and what other instruments they are playing with?

Clinton
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by LorenzoFlute »

Does anyone else find that they play/finger some notes differently depending on which key they are playing in, and what other instruments they are playing with?
Sometimes I use the Eb key on tunes in E, just to give the note some extra power.
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by keithsandra »

Clinton said: " I would be interested in seing how hard it is for you to play an Fnat with the XXX XOX fingering, likely with some lipping down as well."

The Fnat with XXX X0X fingering is off the Korg for sharpness. I usually use XXX X%0. On this flute that's loud and clear, and only about two cents sharp. I can't remember many tunes calling for Fnat anyway. Maybe I just fudge them when they appear and don't notice the difference unless there's an F# and an Fnat close enough to notice the difference?

OTHANEN: I can't remember EVER playing in E. Am I missing something?

Anyway, keeping the single key open while I play tunes with all the other notes would be an agonisingly off-putting imposition when the flute plays so magnificently in the usual keys.

:-? By the way, does anyone know how to delete PHOTOS NOW POSTED in the subject heading and insert RESTORATION PIX POSTED. I can't see how I made the change in the first place ...

Best wishes,

Keith.
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Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!

Post by Peter Duggan »

keithsandra wrote: :-? By the way, does anyone know how to delete PHOTOS NOW POSTED in the subject heading and insert RESTORATION PIX POSTED. I can't see how I made the change in the first place ...
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