Chiff and Fipple Forums

klandfors wrote:...apart from what has already been said above about the effort required to develop the embouchure.

I suppose the words "effort required" are okay, because finding an optimal embouchure is often a matter of dogged persistence wherein developing fluteplayers typically spend a lot of time, with their mouth muscles behaving as if they're power-lifting, in the search for Right Embouchure. The irony is that when you do find it, it's practically effortless, and you wonder why you went to all that face muscle effort for such a simple thing as positioning; after all, how does doing the wrong thing get you to the right thing? It doesn't, at least directly. But I think the struggling is somehow still an inevitable and necessary part of the overall learning process, even though the light of a good embouchure will seem to bear no relationship to the darkness of what was going in in earlier efforts. I think it's fair to regard the successful embouchure hunter's efforts as a process of elimination, because while good embouchure can be very precise, it doesn't require great effort, so if you're lacking for a sense of direction, this one cannot fail you: If it ain't pleasurably easy in all things, keep looking.

klandfors wrote:In my experience, it takes a bit more breath to keep my flute resonating than my whistle did. That may just be because my embouchure is poor.

I would absolutely look to the embouchure for that, because so long as you have a good flute in good order, embouchure's the only answer. Once you really start nailing it, you will be surprised at how little air it takes to play, and even play loudly. It's all in the mouth/jaw/lips positioning, and in leaving pressure supply to the abdomen - IOW the right feeling isn't one of blowing into the flute, but of breathing into it. Someone once said that playing a flute shouldn't take much more air than what you expend while speaking normally, which sounds utterly counterintuitive, but wouldn't you know it: the day came when I found it to be true.

Something to look forward to, isn't it.

Along the same line, the old analogy of the garden hose that you pinch off to get a faster stream of water. Less water, more force. The good embouchure does that.

Another feature of a good flute embouchure is that it tends to improve whistle playing. If you hold the beak of the whistle in your lips, the good embouchure gives you SOME more control over the speed of the air entering the whistle (as in the garden hose analogy), thereby increasing your control over tone--though of course nothing compared to the control you have over a flute.

jim stone wrote:If you hold the beak of the whistle in your lips, the good embouchure gives you SOME more control over the speed of the air entering the whistle (as in the garden hose analogy), thereby increasing your control over tone

Yes, though of course you don't need to play flute to learn that kind of embouchure control on the whistle.

This is true. And, conversely, developing that embouchure control on the whistle can help prepare you for flute.

Nanohedron wrote:To expand: The only area where there's any interchangeability is in fingering patterns. Embouchure, breath control, attack, and flexibility in tone color (to say nothing of their different grips) make flute and low whistle significantly different beasts. From a player's perspective, it's a mistake to think of both as just tubes that you blow into to get hooty noises. And remember that this isn't elitism talking; many accomplished fluteplayers are also accomplished whistle players, and they will say the same thing. Forming a good flute embouchure is probably the hardest thing to master, and for some it can take years. There's more, but this should get you started.

And BTW, the more you listen, the more you'll hear how the sound of a (good) low whistle and that of a well-played (good) trad flute really aren't interchangeable. I mean, you can do it, but if the exact sound of a whistle is what you want, a flute will not do. And, of course, vice versa.

Really excellent advice and very true statement, Nano! I feel the same, and it's why I could not give up the low whistle after I found the flute. And I really loved the flute, still do, but it's not the sound you get from a low whistle. But truth be told, I play more low whistle now again, than I do flute because it's the sound I like best. Edited to add: Low whistle was my first love in Irish music, and where my heart returns me by choice as a player.

Playing the whistle will give you a good basis in the music and notes, so you may later move to the flute with an advantage, but if you really want the flute sound, then maybe you should start there. Undivided attention is always best in such pursuits-concentrate on one at a time, and you will go further, faster.

Follow your heart on this one, and you will have a good start. More good advice has been written, I see now too, reading back on the post.

The flute is more complex for sure. It is not just the embouchure; it's
all the angles involved -

flute: up/down, in/out, turned in/turned out;
head, 2 arms and torso: for each body part - how much to pivot, up/down

Somebody could calculate the number of permutations - what would it be,
10! or something like that - I'm not much of a maths head. Multiplied by
practice time, that's probably a few years of figuring it out what works for
your body, plus messing around with your embouchure, oral cavity
and throat in combination with the permutations above.

Low whistles can be pretty loud - the MX for example equals the
volume that some flute players get. My Hammy Hamilton is also pretty
obnoxious; I leave it at home, following the old 'do unto others' rule.