fyffer wrote:
(Boy -- talk about your serious thread creep on this one ....)
Hrrrmm. . . part of my (speculative) thinking is that it's really impossible to separate timbre from raw pitch (at least in the real world) so that the associations one develops are timbre rather than absolute pitch related. . . but what the heck do I know?
Apologies for the redundant post.
I;ve never actually though about specifics keys having much of a flavor myself. .. no opinion really one way or the other.
I agree with you, Worms, on the timbre-versus-absolute-pitch question.
Think of how a contralto (female) sounds singing the same notes as a tenor (male). Quite different. Also, what a bassoon sounds like playing up in horn range (like that great part of Carmina Burana, the song about the swan's last thoughts as he's about to be eaten?).
A lot of the brightness/darkness/color of a pitch is related to how the instrument was made, I think. Sure, harpsichords that originally played A=420Hz, for example, will sound bright as heck at A=440Hz. Likewise, Bb flutes sound the way they do . . . because they're big.
I guess I don't buy into the Cosmic Pitch Theories myself. I think it has more to do with, for example, where you're comfortable singing. Or the mode of the room you're in. If the room resonates at G, for example, stuff in C and G will sound pretty cool, whereas something in A just won't have the same feel.
Unless you play it in a room that resonates at A . . .
I think, it's fairly obvious that the choice of a root changes the sound of notes when you begin a scale, that's the nature of the modes.
Similarly, the choice of a root key gives different tensions to chords nearby in the circle of fifths.
I think that, the overall western musical context gives different characters to the different keys. That is, the keys sound the way they do because of what we grow up hearing. If exposed to a variety of popular and classical music, you get something like what fyffer and I are saying. I suspect someone from a different musical background would think of the keys differently, or, if we were to warp time and space and move everything down a fifth, I think all the associations would change. Now, whether anyone considers such impressions of the flavours (or colours, as you like, as you long as you spell the words properly ) to be 'real' or not...
Well, I'm inclined to say that these impressions are as 'real' as the impression of tension when playing a minor scale. It only sounds minor on that third note because of the first two notes, after all.
I disagree that growing up in the context of Western music makes us think of certain pitches having certain feels. I would challenge you to find consistent use of the keys. Bright cheery things always in C#? Sad things in B?
Now if you went for the moods associated with modes, I'm all for it. B minor is sad? C# major is happy? Sure. I just don't think that even our musical context paints with an even brush. Some composers thought that some keys have certain feelings, others didn't. If every Requiem were in something SAD, other than having a lot of minor, then I might buy it.
But if you think that, then maybe you're right. It'd be interesting (and so controversial) to do a blinded test, where somebody played you scales and we saw if you consistently associated moods with certain scales . . . I wonder if anyone's done that? Or double-blind, with a computer doing the playing.
sturob wrote:
But if you think that, then maybe you're right. It'd be interesting (and so controversial) to do a blinded test, where somebody played you scales and we saw if you consistently associated moods with certain scales . . . I wonder if anyone's done that? Or double-blind, with a computer doing the playing.
Eh.
Stuart
Hrrm.. come to think of it, even if a double-blind test could be devised, it might not answer the question.
IF people can remember what music comes in what key without a reference tone (IE have a sense of absolute pitch) then no amount of controlling will eliminate the associations we make with prior music we've heard.
Here's how I think, roughly guessing, that it works.
C is our 'common' key, used in all sorts of simple tunes, especially nursery-rhyme stuff,
as well as every melody line in the universe being transposed to C for easier learning by the
young. It has a bland feel, likely because we've been hit over the head with it in music class and heard it used so many ways that we don't know what to expect from it.
G is a fifth above C, and is used in many folk songs, and no small number of rock pieces as well. It's a nice easy key for the guitar and singalongs; but, as we know from chord progression theory, it has more 'excitement' than the C it's a fifth up from.
D is both a fifth up from G, and is raised a full step from C, so in comparison to C, for two different reasons, D sounds more 'lively' or 'energetic'.
Going up another fifth we come to A, which, while it's another fifth up, is also just a few short steps down. Being flat to something is less exciting, usually (some diminished notes can be really interesting...), but being up fifths is more exciting... but, I don't think we get associations from relative keys here, I think A is strongest as the deep male vocalist and has associations of expressiveness.
Bb, I think, sounds to me like a flattened C, so it's not really on for much, but I think for people that love it, it sounds like a sharpened A, a rich expressive key with a little extra excitement.
Anyway, that's some rough theorizing. Now, could a blind test prove me wrong? Maybe
it would. I wouldn't do straight scales though, I'd do 1-3-5-1's, just getting the strong notes. Scales are going to evoke nothing so much as music classes gone by, but just the chord set of notes gives a strong flavour of the key without the scale thing.
That's only true for folks learning to play instruments like piano (that "simple" things are in C).
Take a look at a hymnal. Hymns are, arguably, written so that the melody line is comfortable for most people. They're often written in several flats . . . or even in 5 sharps (which is B).
Chris, as you may be aware, the convention in Western classical or art music is that any composition written for voice or piano is at the liberty of the performer to transpose to a key that suits them . The convention means that the composition is not deemed compromised as a consequence of the change in key. Therefore a piece in A minor will have the equivalent effect if it is sung in B minor or C minor or D minor etc. SUBJECT to the comfort and abilities of the singer. The music of other cultures also have similar conventions, especially vocal based traditions like in India - that any piece may be performed with any tonic chosen by the performer. (This is why in Indian music we use a tonic sol-fa notation).
In this I agree with sturob (I think?) that the nature of the instrument, including the timbre it evinces, and its acoustic extension (the environment) is a vital determinant of what feels better. And, of course, what feels better has a strong subjective component. I do not deny that.
Having said that, Chris, I betcha a C minor played on the Bb flute will sound as haunting as any D minor played on a C flute or on a D flute with keys.
talasiga wrote:
Having said that, Chris, I betcha a C minor played on the Bb flute will sound as haunting as any D minor played on a C flute or on a D flute with keys.
Point taken, and at least partially agreed. However, *To me* (all this subjectivity is getting us nowhere), they would feel like different tunes. I'm weird that way. Cminor is still Cminor.
But if you didn't know Cminor was really Bminor . . . I remain skeptical that you'd be able to tell ex vacuo. Meaning, without being told beforehand which was Cminor. On an instrument with equivalent timbre. Unless you have perfect pitch and you're not flat that day.
Yes, Talasiga; you and I agree! I thought it would come to this one day.
fyffer wrote:
Point taken, and at least partially agreed. However, *To me* (all this subjectivity is getting us nowhere), they would feel like different tunes. I'm weird that way. Cminor is still Cminor.
This insinutaes that you would say the the C major scale feels different to the D major scale and yet they are the same relationally and different only on the premise of the pitch.
Admittedly any two major scales may evoke different feelings
FOR THE SAME REASON
that a C minor at a bass pitch may evoke a different feeling to the same scale in a higher C pitch.
Hence my earlier reference to the "doggie in our psyche".
Or, fyffer, are you suggesting that a C minor on the piccolo has the same effect as a C minor on Bb flute? Hmm?
talasiga wrote:
Or, fyffer, are you suggesting that a C minor on the piccolo has the same effect as a C minor on Bb flute? Hmm?
It depends on whether you are referring to C minor in what I call "Concert pitch" (pardon the classical upbringing - I can't shake it) or C minor "as played" on a "transposing instrument" (which would be the Bb flute). If you are referring to "concert pitch" (which BTW for those not in the know means basically what a tuner would call the pitch), then yes, in my bizarre, curse-stricken brain, Cminor is Cminor is Cminor and evokes the same feeling regardless of the instrument on which it is played - i.e. timbre. I doubt I'm the only one with this affliction (I know at least two other people with the same "problem", but perhaps it's because we shared "recreational activities" in college), but I will concede that it is a highly subjective area.
And also, I can generally only associate those "feelings" for the major keys - I've never really tried to quantify the modes in the way I did in my earlier post.
Or, I could be completely all wet, and if subjected to some sort of experiment where mutliple instruments (transposing and not) were played for me, I wonder if I could properly identify the keys in which they were played. I'll never know until they dissect my brain post mortem.
fyffer, if you find the D minor played on on a low C flute no more haunting than a D minor played on a high C piccolo, you are entitled to your opinion.
Or if you find no difference in the effect of C minor played at the bottom end of a piano VS the top end, well then you are also so entitled.
Some of us are differently affected. It has nothing to do with absolute pitch VS "transposable" pitch You need to examine your rationale in the first para of your above post in light of the piano example.
It seems that we may be talking about different things after all, talasiga.
I never meant to imply that I thought the same key in different octaves would sound the same to me, and I don't think anything I said does imply that, but whatever. This conversation, which I have had with people before, is difficult enough face-to-face, nevermind the nuances lost in forum discussion. My only point was (which I thought I had made, ad nauseum) that I could tell the difference between "absolute pitch" major keys, based on some difficult-to-describe-in-words quality, which some have called "flavour", and I think of as "color", or a specific feeling. That's it. I don't know how much clearer I can be, only that I think I can rest my case (much to the delight, I'm sure, of others reading this thread, which was supposed to be about Bb flutes).
P.S. I've never been haunted by a flute or a piccolo.
) to be 'real' or not... 
You need to examine your rationale in the first para of your above post in light of the piano example.
