Chiff and Fipple Forums

Yes, well, deep breath everybody, charity, group hug,
lighten up--the board has been going through
a rough patch, don't cha know.

David, I bet you're sweet and cuddly as can be. And I know you're smart!
I think maybe sometimes you just read too fast.

Aw heck no, Jim, let's just dig a big mudhole, pour in some Jell-O, and go to it.

WOOF!

sigh
oh, allllll right

<-- dragging his feet

nothing like a good beating with a Patent Head to liven things up a bit!

Ever wonder how O'Carolan went blind? Makes ya wonder, huh?

Such hostility !

A long time ago I was taking Scientific Illustration classes at the NY Botanical Gardens. There was a great opportunity to take a master class in watercolor illustration - unfortunately, it was scheduled before I took Watercolor-1. I wasn't prepared in any way at all - couldn't mix colors, use a brush - totally out of my element. But I learned an incredible amount from his demonstrations, from what other students knew, from his correcting the mistakes they made. In fact, from following his instruction of other students, I think I learned more than if I was directly on the receiving end of his instruction. This was the last class he taught in NY. I caught the opportunity, and I definitely came out a winner.

By all means, take the class - you'll learn more than you will realize at the time, and it will keep coming back as time goes by.

Shoot, I really thought it'd be fun. Kind of like primal-scream therapy, you know? We could all just throw Jell-O & mud around indiscriminately and then all feel better about all the BS we get to deal with in our regular lives.

And THEN we could do a group hug (after getting rid of the Jell-O and mud, of course).

And then maybe we could even have some tunes!

Whaddya say? It'd be fun!

David Migoya wrote:nothing like a good beating with a Patent Head to liven things up a bit!

Ever wonder how O'Carolan went blind? Makes ya wonder, huh?

Well, you've got some of the words in there ... beating, blind, H ....

Never mind, this is a family board.

You know, on this "crusty old battle-worn veterans of the fluting trenches" versus "young upstart wet-behind-the-ears whipper-snappers" issue, some words from the writer Kurt Vonnegut seem appropriate. Vonnegut was speaking to a graduating class about relations between older people and younger people, and their attitudes toward one another, but it seems parallel to the situation between experienced flautists and novices on this board. Vonnegut wrote:

"What is it the slightly older people want from the slightly younger people? They want credit for having survived so long, and often imaginatively, under difficult conditions. Slightly younger people are intolerably stingy about giving them credit for that.

"What is it the slightly younger people want from the slightly older people? More than anything, I think, they want acknowledgement and without further ado that they are, WITHOUT QUESTION, women and men now. Slightly older people are intolerably stingy about making any such acknowledgement.

"Therefore, I take it upon myself to pronounce those about to graduate women and men. No one must ever treat them like children again. Neither must they ever act like children - ever again."

Nobody likes know-it-all novices and nobody likes know-it-all veterans. Nobody likes arrogance and nobody likes condescension. And for the most part, we know NOTHING about each other. For all we know, Tim might be the 1st violin in the London Symphony Orchestra, or Kurt Elling's pianist, or an award-winning composer. So let's all just treat each other with a little respect - unless such respect is OBVIOUSLY not warranted.

As for myself, I am a rank amateur...on the flute. But if Grey Larsen was coming to my hometown, you can bet I'd be there. Just being in the presence of master musicians can provide the inspiration to learn.

My $0.02 worth,

Pete

dhamilingu wrote:You know, on this "crusty old battle-worn veterans of the fluting trenches" versus "young upstart wet-behind-the-ears whipper-snappers" issue, <snip>

I think you posted in the wrong thread. No-one's suggested that Tim is a "young upstart wet-behind-the-ears-whipper-snapper" and I don't see any accusations of David being a "crusty old battle-worn veteran of the fluting trenches".

It's this kind of reaction I think which blows comments out of all proportion. It creates friction, tension, and angst, where none is needed. People then begin talking about 'a war on the flute board', when nothing could be further from the truth.

What happened? I suggested Tim was 'ballsy' for going to the workshop never having touched a flute. For 'ballsy', read courageous, or 'gutsy'. I think it is, because I wouldn't have the nerve to go to what I consider to be an advanced class unless I considered myself advanced enough to 'fit in'. But that's just me. As I said in a subsequent post, "no harm", either intended, or in Tim's going.

A couple of others expressed a cautionary concern which Tim accepted with good grace.

David then posted from the perspective of a teacher, to the effect that one should learn to walk before learning to run. This is perfectly sound advice of course, echoed in all arenas of human endeavour.

Unfortunately, Tim didn't react well to this, most likely because he was tired and overworked. But whatever the reason, from that point, things began to take an unwarranted turn for the worse, as such things often do when well-meaning advice is met with "p*ss off."

Attempts at humour to deflect the ominous direction the thread was going in failed.

And then posts continue along the lines of "Such Hostility!" when in reality there isn't any, and is then appended with nonsense about 'arrogance and condescension, treating people like children, treating each other with respect' and wholly irrelevant (to this thread) quotes from some bloke called Kurt Vonnegut.

What's the likely outcome of feeding the non-existent flames with such posts? David might shrug his shoulders and refrain from offering advice based on his considerable experience and authority on the subject of flutes (which would be a great loss). Tim might leave in a huff, never to return. Someone might post a "Will Tim and David please shut up!" thread which of course will only add to the overall impression that some kind of flame war is going on.

It isn't.

But it might if people simply skim the thread and spot words like "Hostility!" and 'arrogance and condescension, treating people like children, treating each other with respect' without taking the time to understand exactly what was being said, and intended, by the posters involved in the discussion.

Hi Gary,

Thanks for your post - some of your points are well-taken.

However, it was said early on in the thread that "If I were teaching, I'd be annoyed and insulted" - not simply a teacher offering advice based on experience. That kind of language also contributes to a negative atmosphere. I suppose that is part of what Tim then reacted to.

As for my Vonnegut quote, it is nothing more than a plea for civility and respect - something we can do with more of. For your information, Kurt Vonnegut is perhaps the finest American humourist since Mark Twain, author of Slaughterhouse 5 and Breakfast of Champions, among others. I suppose I trying to inject a little philosophical humour into what was becoming a heavy thread.

P.

Sorry for missing the point of your quote Pete, I'm not well versed in American humourists (and detested Huckleberry Finn when I was obliged to read it as a kid which rather put me off Mark Twain after that).

GaryKelly wrote:Sorry for missing the point of your quote Pete, I'm not well versed in American humourists (and detested Huckleberry Finn when I was obliged to read it as a kid which rather put me off Mark Twain after that).

I loved Huckleberry Finn. There is an estuary near where I live and there are islands in the river. I would love to shoot a series in this scenario. I enjoyed it more than the prequel, Tom Sawyer.

I speculate that Australians are somewhat better positioned
to like Huck Finn, and Brits are perhaps better situated
to appreciate Huck's cousin, Rudyard Kipling's Kim.