Chiff and Fipple Forums

Jumbuk wrote:What would also be interesting is to do some measurement of say a vocalist or a solo flute or violin playing a straight air to see whether the natural tendency is to play just or equal-tempered intervals when there is no context of a harmonic accompaniment.

By coincidence I am just reading pioneer folk song collector Cecil J. Sharp's "English folk song ". When talking about rural singers of the 'english peasantry' who were young men in the 1850's he says

He sings, too, as a rule, with very pure intervals, except when the compass of a song is so wide that he is driven on to the extreme notes of his voice... ... many singers take the natural seventh, especially in mixolidian tunes, and the natural third, instead of the corresponding tempered intervals. Folk singers have, no doubt, acquired their vocal skill from constantly singing without accompaniment. The unevenness of tone which mars the vocalisation of all but the very best of singers is directly attributable to the practice of singing habitually with instrumental accompaniment.

Presumably 'singers' in the last sentence means trained singers or townies with a piano in the parlor. Elsewhere in the book he argues that the true folk song melodies in England were not as different in terms of modes etc to those in the Celtic regions as many writers thought.

Tintin wrote:Thanks for finding the article, Jack and David.
Now, any good ideas for drone/tone generators against which to practice pure intervals?

I have just fired up Audacity (free, http://audacity.sourceforge.net ) with the intention of doing exactly that. Not tried the flute yet but it is pretty obvious when a whistle moves in and out of tune with the generated sine wave. Also becoming obvious that my ears are not well trained one way or the other which I hope is not a bad starting point !

List of frequencies anyone ? I think I have seen a table somewhere.

(probably getting ahead of myself, should really be doing long tones, is this a displacement activity ?)

Tintin wrote:Thanks for finding the article, Jack and David.
Now, any good ideas for drone/tone generators against which to practice pure intervals?

Yeah. They're called uilleann pipes.

Does anyone make foot-pump operated pipe drones for flute players?

Tintin wrote:...any good ideas for drone/tone generators against which to practice pure intervals?

Provided that you are playing a flute in pitched in D (ala Irish flute), begin with a tuning fork, also pitched in D, and treat your ears to that D pitch until you know it well, really, really well.

Then, play that exact tone on your flute. Feel free to strike the tuning fork whenever you wish to check your tuning on the flute. Play it until you have it nailed, perfectly.

Then, using that D pitch as a reference tone, tune all other intervals to that reference pitch. Again, use ONLY that D as a reference, and tune all other tones to it.

Basically, when it sounds right, it is right.

That's about all there is to it.

I haven't noticed anyone else mention it, so there's a good book called "Temperament". It's really quite a good read:

http://www.amazon.com/Temperament-Becam ... 288&sr=8-1

Erik

Dana wrote:When playing in an ensemble, any good player can and must markedly adjust each note to be "in tune". So however your instrument's scale has been tuned, much of intonation is the player's responsibility. (except for certain string instruments that aren't quickly tunable like piano).

I play in orchestras. There's a real art to getting woodwind chords tuned, and it's one of the major challenges. Each member is constantly aware of pitch, and where his/her note needs to fit in. You can't base your note placement on a tuner, because it will often sound "out of tune" with everyone else. Some of this pitch adjustment is based on knowledge of the chord, but for me, most of it is instinct - getting the sound and feel just right.

Then there are the issues of tuning to the strings...

Dana

Exactly. I've played in orchestras where I had to change the pitch of a long held note, because the underlying harmony below it changed. For example, a G# is the third of an E major triad, and so should be played a little lower than tempered to be in tune, but also the fifth of a C# triad, and so shoudl be raised from tempered to be in tune. If you hold that G#, and the other members of an orchestra play first the notes in an E major, and then a C# (either major or minor, it doesn't matter) chord, you need to change the pitch of the note, even though it is the same written note.

Tintin wrote:Thanks for finding the article, Jack and David.
Now, any good ideas for drone/tone generators against which to practice pure intervals?

http://www.idrs.org/midi/midi_hp.htm

Thanks for the reference tone ideas.
In the context of actually playing in tune (rather than in equal temperament),
it seems the uses of the electronic tuner are rather limited, right?

Tintin wrote:Thanks for the reference tone ideas.
In the context of actually playing in tune (rather than in equal temperament),
it seems the uses of the electronic tuner are rather limited, right?

I think the word "limited" is a good one. When I was starting out, I found it good for just learning how to blow the flute properly to match a pitch -- as was said previously, the exact frequency isn't important as long as you can match it. If your ear isn't trained, it is easier to match the needle, slider, whatever of your tuner than it is to match a tone. Some tuners, tuner_e, for example, have loads of temperaments, too.

BTW, that article by Catherine Folkers is fascinating. I think it's just what I needed to get Quantz out again. There are some things in his book that I think will be easier to understand after reading her paper.

Denny wrote:

Jumbuk wrote:

Denny wrote:now Jumbuk, I think you're overlooking Bach's love of his electronic gadgetry.

Yes, I forgot about that photo on the cover of "Switched on Bach"

It was a pretty big seller for him ya know.

BTW, that person you referred to as him is now a her. The Switched on Bach person, that is, not the J.S. Bach person. The jury is still out on that PDQ Bach person, though. To be sure, probably using the pronoun "it" would be your best choice there...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Carlos

Flutes are EASY to tune.

I have recently acquired a 36-string harp. That's a nightmare in comparison.

Well, I usually do carry a digital tuner to sessions with me.

Before the session starts, I tune the flute and any whistles using G in the first and second octave.

Usually right before the session starts, if Alan or Al is joining us that evening, I'll check tuning against one of their boxes for good measure, but this usually doesn't involve much change, if any.

By the way, when tuning any woodwind, make it easy on yourself and blow warm air through it first to bring it up to temperature before trying to tune it...otherwise, as it warms up you'll go sharp compared to your original pitch.

--James

The fact is, there are situations where playing "in tune" means playing in equal temperament, and there are situations where playing "in tune' means playing in Just Intonation.
Just Intonation is obviously called for when playing over a fixed drone, and in fact just about every bagpipe tradition I've heard (Scottish, uilleann, Bulgarian, Spanish, etc etc) uses it.
I play Highland pipes and they, in the hands of a good player, are strictly tuned to Just Intonation.
I also play uilleann pipes. On uilleann pipes I've got used to playing in Equal Temperatment because I'm often playing along with a piano or organ or doing studio gigs. I also use Equal Temperament with my little Irish music group, as we have guitar accompaniment. When I play uilleann pipes solo I put tape on the F# hole to bring the major 3rd down to its "just" interval. I don't ever have the B on the uilleann pipes tuned "just" as this sounds very flat to me, though my ear is used to the "just" major 6th on the Highland pipes. A dual aesthetic I suppose.
By the way, the Just Intonation scale on a "D" instrument heard over a "D" drone would be:
D: 0
E: +4
F#: -14
G: -2
A: +2
B: -16
C natural: -31
+/- is the number of cents deviation from Equal Temperament.
This very flat "flat 7th" is actually not the Just flat 7th, but is in fact a unison with the 7th harmonic of the harmonic series. Listen to any recording of a good Highland piper or Highland pipe band to hear how lovely this unison sounds. The strong presence of harmonics in the drones of Highland pipes makes all the harmonic intervals a must.
Now what is an Irish flute player to do? If playing along with an uilleann piper who has his pipes tuned "just", he obviously must do the same or be out-of-tune. If playing along with guitar accompaniment, the Irish fluteplayer must play in Equal Temperament or sound out-of-tune.
An additional issue with the uilleann pipes is that E is nearly always flatter in the second octave than it is in the first, so an uilleann chanter with the low E at the "just" +4 interval will have its high E at around the Equal Temperament interval. Likewise, B is nearly always sharper in the upper octave, so an uilleann chanter with its low B tuned to the "just" interval of -16 will have its high B at nearly the Equal Temperament position.