This would be a ineresting design for a metal Conical flute

Cork · Post by **Cork** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:47 pm

jim stone wrote:I MUST have one!

Shhh! That's what I'm getting at! ;-)

Jon C. · Post by **Jon C.** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:50 am

Cork wrote:Somehow, $3K seems about right. However, considering the Research and Development costs, to determine an optimum configuration for such a flute, could you venture a guess as to roughly how many such flutes would need to be sold at $3K each to recover the R&D costs? Perhaps a couple of hundred? That is, perhaps a one-off, one only, of such a design could cost a lot more than $3K.

I don't mean to hold you to any account, but I am trying to get some sense of true costs, here, please.

Your right, there would be a learning curve. But keep in mind that the technology and the design is already there, so that helps. The actual design could mimick a wood flute, conical dimentions, chimney hight, and hole locations, could all be the same. So then there is technique for making the body of the flute, which would be similar to making tapered Beohm head joint tubes, joints and slides. The body could be designed around a mandral that is turned to the inner dimentions of the bore, then soldered and then shaped to a finished body, solder on the raised tone holes, and key seats, similar to the Beohm. The keys could be pin mounted on plates, and soldered on.
So I would guess about 20- 50? flutes to catch up, on the price. Of course the way silver prices are going, they have doubled since I started making flutes! Should have bought silver when it was $5 a ounce...

Cork · Post by **Cork** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:44 am

Thank you, Jon. It's interesting to consider that maybe a pool of, say, a hundred or so interested players willing to put up a few thousand dollars each could create a real market for this sort of flute. Moreover, given the virtually unique status of such a flute, and given that six and/or eight key version(s) could have a range of potential applications, perhaps a minimum of advertising within known flute playing communities could discover sufficient interest to actually see such a flute put into at least temporary production. Indeed, for a limited production run, it becomes amusing to consider whether a greater number of players, or, a greater number of collector/speculators, could be the majority of the buyers.

Terry McGee · Post by **Terry McGee** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:55 pm

Of course, we're not that far off ...

Terry

Jon C. · Post by **Jon C.** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:04 pm

Terry McGee wrote:Of course, we're not that far off ...

Terry

It's true, the bottom end of of the flute seldom cracks from excessive moisture, but the lined head wouldn't be much difference either, except for shrinkage issues.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:50 pm

Sorry i may have missed something.
What is that flute?

Terry McGee · Post by **Terry McGee** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:32 pm

Sorry Jim, I should have explained. That's one of my flutes (a Rudall Refined in that image but it could be any of my models) fitted with my "Silver Head". The point I was making is that the head and barrel arrangement is pretty much the same as Clinton used on his Flute for India, so that presents no problems in developing such a flute.

I will get on and build the rest of a Flute for India at some time - I certainly enjoy playing them. Our research work on Clinton continues to suggest he was really a rather bright guy, rather than the weirdo that Carte and Rockstro have attempted to paint him. Andra and Adrian, two other members of our research team, have been working on recording some of his works on some of his instruments, and that recording will include some on the Flute for India. Next year is incidentally the 200th anniversary of his birth, so we're thinking of ways to celebrate it. I guess re-release of the Flute for India would be appropriate!

One of the weaknesses in the FFI and similar silver heads made at the time was that the wood or ivory lip plate cracked badly for the same reason wooden flute heads from earlier in the century did - the wood or ivory shrinks but the metal tube doesn't. I get around that in my silver head design by not having the wood go right around the tube - there's a thin slot underneath (where it causes no problems). The wood is bonded to the silver just around the embouchure hole. I also make the lip plate eccentric to the tube so I can have a deeper chimney without having a thicker head. So it's like the Thinned Head, although it would be equally easy to make it concentric for those who prefer the mid 19th century approach.

Terry

Cork · Post by **Cork** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:30 pm

Yes, but, would you perhaps also make an all silver model, head joint and all?

Terry McGee · Post by **Terry McGee** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:43 pm

Certainly could. There are some benefits the excavator (wooden flute maker) has over the fabricator (the metal flute maker). That's why a lot of metal flute players buy wooden heads for their metal flutes. So that might argue for the wooden lip plate approach.

The Flute for India and other metal flutes of the time either had a wooden or ivory (or in the case of the German Reform Flutes, a bakelite) expansion at the embouchure. Some of these than had a silver cover over the wood, so it looked all metal. Unfortunately, this didn't stop the wood or ivory inside from cracking - it did so anyway, leaving you with a very hard-to-get-to problem!

Another option not available to them at the time would be to have a delrin lip plate. Not as romantic as wood, ivory or silver, but does avoid the splitting issue entirely while still giving you the excavator's freedom to move. I think there'd be a dozen ways to shuck the epidermis from this feline.

Terry

Cork · Post by **Cork** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:00 am

In addition to possible interest from the ITM world, perhaps there'd be some interest from the Baroque world, too. For instance, there are those Baroque players who prefer to play on period type instruments, but who themselves learned to play a Boehm flute before any other, so who might like a combination of the features of both.

An all silver flute would be my preference, please.

Jon C. · Post by **Jon C.** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:33 am

Cork wrote:In addition to possible interest from the ITM world, perhaps there'd be some interest from the Baroque world, too. For instance, there are those Baroque players who prefer to play on period type instruments, but who themselves learned to play a Boehm flute before any other, so who might like a combination of the features of both.

An all silver flute would be my preference, please.

I don't think you will get much interest with the Baroque crowd, they are a little paticular about the flutes they play...
I don't see why you couldn't make a Beohm type emb. plate in silver. I wonder if you could tell the difference, between that and wood? That is if you could replicate a embouchure that you would have on a wood flute.

Terry McGee · Post by **Terry McGee** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:11 am

Cork wrote:
An all silver flute would be my preference, please.

Certainly, Sir, I'll have one of my tailors slip round in the morning for a measuring. Is Sir thinking Pratten, Rudall, Clinton, GLP or other?

Clinton's flute for India is probably best described as a late Nicholson (ie Rudall) style of flute, even though the body is in one piece like a Pratten. Some Nicholson's Improveds were one-piece, so I guess that covers that.

Jon C. wrote: I don't think you will get much interest with the Baroque crowd, they are a little paticular about the flutes they play...

Indeed.

Interestingly, Quebec maker Jean-François Beaudin has developed a Boehm-bored one-key flute which he calls his FLÛTE TRAVERSO MODERNE. It would not be easy to market this to the early music set. It raises fascinating questions such as is early-styled music condemned to be a "dead art", capable only of replication? Or could it once more become a live tradition, as has Irish music? We all held great fears for Irish music in the seventies. It seems to be doing considerably better than Dylan now.

Terry

Cork · Post by **Cork** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:39 pm

Terry McGee wrote:
Cork wrote:
An all silver flute would be my preference, please.
Certainly, Sir, I'll have one of my tailors slip round in the morning for a measuring. Is Sir thinking Pratten, Rudall, Clinton, GLP or other?...

An all silver flute is my preference.

Cork · Post by **Cork** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:49 pm

Jon C. wrote:...I don't think you will get much interest with the Baroque crowd, they are a little paticular about the flutes they play......

My being part of the Baroque "crowd", as well, I can see your point, for there are those who insist on A=415 flutes, of which none are Boehm.

OTOH, I sincerely doubt that an A=415 flute could sell, and think that whatever venture into any conical bore, silver flute could better be at A=440.

;-)

Terry McGee · Post by **Terry McGee** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:37 pm

Cork wrote:
Terry McGee wrote:
Cork wrote:
An all silver flute would be my preference, please.
Certainly, Sir, I'll have one of my tailors slip round in the morning for a measuring. Is Sir thinking Pratten, Rudall, Clinton, GLP or other?...
An all silver flute is my preference.

Understood. But an all-silver conical flute could be based on any bore, just as an all-wooden flute can be. What should it be? Just have faith in Mr Clinton, or go with one of the regulars?

Terry