Why cocus?

[kkrell]

I agree that the soundboard makes the biggest difference, and I also feel I know, from long experience, that a spruce
top plus rosewood back and sides tends to have a significantly different sound from a spruce top and mahogany back and sides, or a spruce top plus maple back and sides.

Or Cedar top w/East Indian Rosewood back & sides vs. Spruce top w/Brazilian Rosewood back & sides. Of course, a lot also depends on the bracing, thickness & craft of the luthier, and some can produce good sound out of pallet wood. Plus bridge & neck materials, profile & construction, nut & saddle materials, setup and strings.

[Gordon]

Yep, just like flutes, guitar construction has far more to do with sound differences than the wood, although wood in a sound-box instrument, guitar, violin, whatever, does make a difference. Just not all that much.

Oh, and I've got 30 plus years guitar experience, too, Jim. Doesn't make me right, or wrong, either.

[keithsandra]

So what we're saying is:

Hocus pocus cocus - blackwood schnappwood, Tippley-fipley - whats it matter so long as we love our flutes ...?

(With apologies to Jewish mothers everywhere ...).



Best wishes,

Keith.

[monkeymonk]

Quote: "Hocus pocus cocus - blackwood schnappwood, Tippley-fipley - whats it matter so long as we love our flutes ...?"


I think it's even more than that. The audience is only 1/2 the audience and the other 1/2 needs to be able to connect with the design and materials of the flute. Thats how i feel anyhow and i wonder if the tone that people as outside audience are associating with different flute materials might be not just the way the flute is built but also the way that the player connects with the flute intimately to create something special. Flute design aside, the material seems to be less important (within certian parameters) than how the player connects to the material be it blackwood, cocuswood, rosewood, morningwood, delrin, ebonite or PVC.
I don't own any cocus flutes but i have played 2 flutes made out of cocus, an An Olwell pratten and an antique Firth, Hall & Pond. I found both to be a pleasure to play. The cocus was light, brittle feeling and had a lovely, dark sound. It felt like the wood was just humming beneath my fingers, especially on the Olwell. I play an Olwell pratten in blackwood now and it doesnt sound or feel quite the same as the cocus one i played but i still connect to it (like i haven't connected to any other flute before) and that connection gives me more confidence, which hopefully makes me sound better. Just my 2 zinc filled cents.

I think it is fine to talk about the various tonal properties of different flute materials from the player's point of view because the player connects directly with the flute.

[Rob Sharer]

You know, if wood could make a difference, it would be a difference you would only hear if you really got the flute excited and buzzing. We need to be honest with ourselves about whether we're getting the most out of whatever flute we're trying to make a tone on before obsessing about the minute differences at the margins of flute performance.

As for comparing flutes, I've never seen two identical flutes. Until you can make two such flutes in two different woods, you won't know what you're hearing in a comparison.


Rob

[monkeymonk]

You know, if wood could make a difference, it would be a difference you would only hear if you really got the flute excited and buzzing. We need to be honest with ourselves about whether we're getting the most out of whatever flute we're trying to make a tone on before obsessing about the minute differences at the margins of flute performance.

As for comparing flutes, I've never seen two identical flutes. Until you can make two such flutes in two different woods, you won't know what you're hearing in a comparison.

So what's the most out of a flute? Volume? Complexity? being able to play across octaves effortlessly? So all the people who aren't getting the absolute most out of their flutes can't really comment on their impressions of how different wood types sound to them? The fact that there are too many variables might mean that you have to forgive some of those variables and accept an amount of subjectivity which is what it all boils down to when there is a discussion like this where not everything can be measured.

On the other hand you might be able to get past the "two identical flutes" problem by creating multiple identical flutes of varying woods. I was wondering if a study could be conducted using multiple flutes made of 2 different materials and using Terry McGee's raised lip plate head design. The lip plates could be thinly coated to keep the musician from guessing the wood type. The subjects would then have to report their impressions of how the various flutes sounded to them.

[Gordon]

On the other hand you might be able to get past the "two identical flutes" problem by creating multiple identical flutes of varying woods. I was wondering if a study could be conducted using multiple flutes made of 2 different materials and using Terry McGee's raised lip plate head design. The lip plates could be thinly coated to keep the musician from guessing the wood type. The subjects would then have to report their impressions of how the various flutes sounded to them.

I think Rob's point was that you can't make two identical flutes, ever, even from the same wood type. So comparing two different flutes of different woods and saying that the wood is the crucial difference between them is giving too much sway to the wood, as opposed to all the other possible intangible things that might make one flute a bit better than the other, besides the wood. And even the identical wood is not identical, tree to tree, source to source.

And so it continues...

[monkeymonk]

On the other hand you might be able to get past the "two identical flutes" problem by creating multiple identical flutes of varying woods. I was wondering if a study could be conducted using multiple flutes made of 2 different materials and using Terry McGee's raised lip plate head design. The lip plates could be thinly coated to keep the musician from guessing the wood type. The subjects would then have to report their impressions of how the various flutes sounded to them.

I think Rob's point was that you can't make two identical flutes, ever, even from the same wood type. So comparing two different flutes of different woods and saying that the wood is the crucial difference between them is giving too much sway to the wood, as opposed to all the other possible intangible things that might make one flute a bit better than the other, besides the wood. And even the identical wood is not identical, tree to tree, source to source.

And so it continues...

Right, so you cut down that variability in construction by widening your survey base and creating many different flutes made the same way but out of 2 different materials. Impractical but it might help to soften the "two flutes" problem.

[Terry McGee]

Even here, it's pretty rare to have two flutes in different timbers that are nominally the same. But coincidentally I have a fairly close approximation available at the moment. Two 6-key flutes, in my Rudall 5088 model, both with improved elliptical embouchures, eccentric bore heads, long D foot. One in Mopane, the other in blackwood. Reamed with the same reamers, drilled with the same drills, turned to nominally the same dimensions. Variation in undercutting is possible, as that is an entirely unguided manual process.

The difference, as I perceive it when playing, is very small. Indeed, to the point I'm not quite sure which one I prefer - just as I think I'm making a decision, I suddenly change my mind. So I tried them out on Jesse and my 15 yo son Ciaron. Both commented they sounded very similar, and both asked to hear both again. Ciaron felt he preferred the blackwood, Jesse thought the Mopane slightly nicer. Sum total of outcomes, zero.

I weighed the two flutes and found Mopane 348gms, blackwood 354 gms. A difference of only 6 gms, or 1.7%. Expressed in logarithmic terms, which better represent our hearing, it's only 0.15dB. A trained musical ear can detect changes in level of 1dB in a steady tone under good listening conditions. So if density is the important issue, it would confirm that we shouldn't be able to detect it.

They are of course two very similar African timbers, and perhaps evolution has more to offer when we compare Africa with Central America.

Terry

[monkeymonk]

Thanks Terry for shedding light on this post

I guess the debate will alway go on as it does in the field of psychology where there are many good theories that are backed up by some hard evidence but peole will still believe what they want to believe and psychometrics can't account for everything we feel and think.

The contradiction exists here on David Chu's website where he both emphasizes the acoustic design and then as one scrolls down the page goes on to describe the tonal qualities of the various woods:

"I enjoy the visual beauty and workability of these woods, however, it is the acoustic and ergonomic design that gives the voice to the headjoint. Every headjoint is handmade and unique. The subtleties in each variety of wood present an addition level of individuality within each headjoint."

[Geoffrey Ellis]

I'm relatively new to making flutes for ITM but I've been making various World flutes full time for the last 16 years. I started out making Native American style fipple flutes and then branched out to things like xiao, quena, bansuri, and what are often (controversially) called "Anasazi" flutes.

The players who enjoy these different flutes have proven to be very open to a wide variety of wood choices, so I've utilized quite a range of flute timbers over the years, both soft and hard. And because I've made in excess of 5,000 instruments in that time, I've had a chance to experiment with making identical versions of all of these flutes with wood choice being the only variable.

In my experience, the wood choice has a tiny impact on the overall sound of the instrument, all other factors being equal, and I believe this impact has more to do with how the material can be worked. The difference does exist, but again and again I've found that very few listeners can distinguish it. This is even more true if the woods are reasonably close to the same density. In those cases, in a blind audition, the differences can rarely be perceived.

The biggest difference between the woods is how the bore cuts. Open grain wood that bores out less smoothly and has micro-tears and irregularities on the bore surface will create drag, making a less responsive flute with a darker timbre. When I took to finishing the inside bores of my flutes with clear epoxy, all of that changed. With the inner surface being smooth, the actual density of the wood itself became less significant. In fact, I'm always amazed when I find a flute makers web site where they differentiate the character of the different woods like they are describing wines! I admit that I love to read them, but I've got a pretty good ear and a fair amount of experience and I don't know if I could use words to describe the difference between blackwood and cocobolo, for example.

I've heard a great many of these discussions over the years and one of the things I've discovered is that even though the audience may not hear the differences imparted by wood choices, the players often "feel" the differences when they play. Some lighter woods vibrate more in the hand, giving the player a sensation of resonance. This total body experience is often categorized as the "sound" of the wood, but a listener who isn't touching the flute does not necessarily experience it that way. To them, the blackwood sounds just like the maple. To the player, they seem quite different.

I can't tell you how many times (hundreds, for sure) I've had players contact me and they want to know which wood is the best sounding. They are always surprised when I tell them that 95% of the flutes voice and character comes from the design (bore profile, embouchure cut, fipple design, etc.). It is very common to meet players who have this strong expectation that wood choice is going to make it or break it in terms of the sound.

Having said that, I do believe that wood choice does affect the flute's sound and skilled players can perceive it. It might be a barely quantifiable difference, but even 5% is important when it comes to personal taste.

[jim stone]

Also there is the 'under the ear' phenomenon. A tonal difference due to material that may be discernible to the musician may not be to the audience.
When I asked Ralph Sweet whether there would be a tonal difference tween his rosewood and blackwood flutes in the same key, he said there was but only 'under the
ear of the musician.'

Boxwood often does have a discernible and distinctive sound to the audience, in my experience, as when I heard Olwell Prattens in boxwood and blackwood played
by the same skilled player. The boxwood pratten had the sweet and mellow distinctive sound I've come to associate with boxwood. I used to like that sound more than I do now.

[Casey Burns]

Whether the wood is vibrating itself and radiating sound (as in a guitar) on a flute is open to question. An interesting experiment would be to carefully wrap a flute with some sound deadening type fabric (except around the fingerholes and embouchure) and see what difference this makes to the tone, if any.

I suspect most of the significant differences to the tone between woods has to do with the boundary layer (air/wood interface) where most of the frictional forces on the sound vibrations occur. Differences in the woods' microtextures, pore spacing, degree of finish, etc. This is directly observable before and just after a flute's bore is oiled, which changes these parameters, if temporarily.

[Gordon]

What's really impossible to determine, I think, is an impression, the one we get actually playing a flute, and not speculating about it, or the wood it was carved from.

Before flute, I'd dealt with factory-made guitars, ostensibly identical, factory specs and all. I'd sit for hours playing through the same make and models, and finally choose one that almost mystically spoke to me. Was one Strat really different from another? Probably a little - there are specs on paper and then there's the reality of an individual instrument. But still, the higher the quality, the less specs are off, and this or that one just seemed a bit better than the others...

So here's a cool mind game: You own a keyless blackwood flute by a reputable maker, with little wear, tear, or identifiable mark. It's a good flute, maybe a great flute, but most of all, you're comfortable with it and you feel a certain kinship or affection for it. Now, if a thief, of sorts, broke into your home and replaced your flute with a visually identical flute, made sure the slide and the internal cork setting was exactly the way it was the last time you picked it up - pod-flute replacement in the black of night - would you know it was a different flute right away? How about after a few tunes or after full hour of playing?

"This isn't my flute!" you'd exclaim. "And there's definitely something different about Uncle Charlie..."

Personally, I think most of us would know, intuitively, that it was not our flute. Or, possibly, we'd wonder what was different about our playing, suddenly, for better or worse, depending on how great the flute actually was in the first place.

Anyway. Those of us who don't own or go through a lot of flutes, and have way too much time on our hands, think about these things...

[Steve Bliven]

Whether the wood is vibrating itself and radiating sound (as in a guitar) on a flute is open to question. An interesting experiment would be to carefully wrap a flute with some sound deadening type fabric (except around the fingerholes and embouchure) and see what difference this makes to the tone, if any.

Wouldn't the player's grip perform much the same function as the sound deadening type fabric in muting any vibrations?

On an acoustic guitar not much touches the vibrating soundboard (perhaps the "anchor pinky" from a finger picker who uses that technique or the forearm as it rests on the edge of the instrument) so it's free to vibrate. On a flute there are the lips and several fingers, depending on the note being played, gripping the much smaller (than the guitar) area subject to potential vibration.

Just thinkin'....

Best wishes.

Steve