Self Taught, Folk Players...Advice?

[GreySatyr]

Sometimes but not in this case.

It could reveal that some of the members are more knowledgable in music than I but I could have told you that, I wouldn't be asking questions if that wasn't the case.

[oleorezinator]

I do plan on playing Irish trad music along with a unique style of music that really doesn't have a name yet. It's a big movement in Europe and although I don't live there I am loving its style and its actually what influenced me to play flute.

Folk rock is the style, although the 1st video you posted sounded like new age stuff. If you learn to pay traditional Irish music you'll be loaded for elephant if you're going to noodle with that other stuff. Still ain't much new under the sun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrsVz_Nt ... ata_player

[GreySatyr]

Okay point proven.

Well while you're all picking apart my choice of words, my taste in music and my lack of musical knowledge you should have a go at my lack of knowledge, skill and experience with the flute. I mean you're all taking it so easy on me, you know. I'd hate for y'all to feel like you didn't force another ritual sacrifice/wanna-be flute player away from Irish trad and into a life of self loathing, pity and despair.

[woodfluter]

Overanalyzing is my forte

Back to your original request and present limitations...
Some suggestions - may repeat some you've alread heard:

(1) Listen carefully to others. E.g. YouTube examples, what folks do in performances, what you see accomplished players doing in sessions and elsewhere. Listening well is something learnable, that you can cultivate and improve on forever.

(2) Listen carefully and critically to yourself. Have a mental image of what you'd like to hear yourself doing. Practice in a place with lively acoustics so you aren't just hearing what is closest to your ears, but also what is coming back from a larger space. Compare and work on fixing things that don't quite measure up.

(3) Use a mirror. You may find yourself doing things that are compromising your tone or your body posture may inhibit performance. Make a habit of studying what is happening in detail when things are working well, and what's off when they aren't. I've found this surprisingly helpful.

(4) Listen to your body. It's been pointed out that a teacher can prevent lifelong bad habits. In my view, no habit cannot be rectified later but it's a pointless hassle to deal with that if you can prevent it early. The flute isn't the world's champion of ergonomic instruments. Pay attention to stress at the outset, make adjustments, and (my opinon) watch what some classical players do - you don't have to adopt it all but jeez, pro orchestra members play far more hours every day than nearly any of us will and they know something about minimizing stress and maximizing efficiency.

(5) Get a metronome. Digital ones are fine and pretty cheap these days. It will serve you for years to come. Yeah, in real life you aren't going to play with a metronome-like rhythm, hopefully it will have more life that that. But it's a great discipline in the absence of a dedicated rhythm player. The first while will likely be something of a shock...

(6) Focus on tone and pitch every time you practice. Start out with a good strong tone and everything else becomes easier.

(7) Don't obsess over speed. You cannot play well at speed if you haven't got the notes right. It takes patience. Break things down, isolating the difficult bits and playing them over and over slowly until it seems ... inevitable. Then tie them into the rest and ramp up speed slowly. Other hard spots will emerge, and you'll repeat the process. Don't cheat and cut corners while practicing, and don't settle for sloppy. Go slow and get it right.

(8) Play with others. If at all possible, get with folks that are more experienced. I've played with those who considered themselves accomplished and sometimes felt swamped, but every single time I've played with someone who was really, really good, it seemed like I could play a little better than I thought possible. The best will lift your boat. But beware...if the tempos are too much for you, better to play something simplified or just the notes you can play surely in time and in pitch. (Others will be horrified at this suggestion, but it's my view anyway. If you do it right, you can contribute and not detract.)

(9) I'm saving this for last because it's one of the hardest to swallow. Find some way to record and listen to yourself. It isn't fun. You won't like what you hear at first. But it will give you a different perspective and reveal things you didn't think were there. Don't get too close to the mic. Keep a decent distance and get a bit of room acoustics. Focus on rhythm and tone and pitch and attack. Smooth out the places that are too percussive and add emphasis where it's too smooth.

I think you can be your own teacher, but it takes work and dedication. There have been a remarkable number of amazing musicians that were self-taught, rarely in true isolation however. Most importantly, have fun!

[Aanvil]

Oh, now he's dissing the basement bagpipe playing leprechaun shrine.

That's a feking requirement mate. No shrine no sessions.

[GreySatyr]

Haha! Aye, I need to find me jugs of golden coins. There be tree of em and then I'll be buying me golden flute. Seriously though, I'm building a shrine now.

[Julia Delaney]

I mean you're all taking it so easy on me, you know.

We are. You have no idea....
Tell us, have you learned just one Irish tune since you've been posting? Or just one Irish tune that takes your fancy and that you have been trying to learn? That you can whistle along with? Or hear in your head as you eat or ride a bike or walk around the house? Can you read music? Not that it's essential, but it can help.
You see, people come and go here, engaging in spirited debate about not much at all, dispensing useless advice. Over time many of us have grown sceptical about people posting about how dedicated they are. I don't mean to be cruel, but commitment isn't measured in term of forum posts. I get the feeling that you'd rather talk about stuff here than play your flute. Like many other people who post a lot here.
We get the thing about the bare-chested men and the bosomy ladies in long white dresses. But what Irish music takes your fancy? What tunes? What players? We don't want to force another ritual sacrifice/wanna-be flute player away from Irish trad and into a life of self loathing, pity and despair. But many of us have spent years at the end of the bench, learning and listening, gathering notes and tunes as if they were bits of gold. So we are sceptical about somebody who, when asked what he likes, posts "show music," commercial crap, rather than the hard core, pure-drop music that we spend hours playing and practicing.
Were we face to face I would say all this to you with a kindly smile. I would not tell you to go away. But I might tell you to shut up and practice.

[keylessflute]

Hello,

I try to learn the flute myself, but have been into traditional music (and some other instruments) for quite a long time. So, here are some thoughts on what might be useful at your stage. Just my personal thoughts, though - pick out what you like and forget about the rest

- If it comes to Irish traditional music, I would avoid playing from sheet music at all costs. I made this mistake myself once - it's like learning a new language from books only. Of course, later on, sheet music can be a very fine addition in your toolbox.

- Somebody mentioned the Amazing Slow Downer earlier in this thread, IMO that's a brilliant tool. The basic version even is available for free. It plays only the first two tracks of a CD, but if you copy the two sets you want to learn on a CD, there you go … not so smooth as working with the full version, but if funds are low, this surely is an option. I did it myself that way before getting the full version at last.

- Training of your ears wouldn't be a bad idea. If you happen to have a keyboard or a piano at home, play notes with the right hand and try to hit the exact tone on the flute. Of course, this would only work with G, A, B, C, C#. If you happen to have a few bucks to spend, you may get some tuning forks instead, they're available in every single pitch, not only in A. Cheaper still, and more effective, too, would be to practice this exercises together with a fiddle player, if there's a willing one around. However, it is important to try to adjust your tone to another tone, that's why,in this case, a tuner wouldn't do.

- Metronome. By all means, get one, no matter which one. They start at less than six dollars, shipping included. At some sessions, I met people who were proud of not practicing with a metronome. Well - you definitely could hear that.

- Take your time and don't expect too much of yourself. Progress will be very slow at first. I guess that's the way it goes, unless, of course, you're a born musician.

- Forget about speed. If you practice regularly and slow, speed will come naturally, as years pass by. I guess this might be so because the muscles get used to the movements and thus have lesser difficulties to execute them quickly.

- Listen to the music as much as you can to get into it. Read as much as you can on the subject and talk to as much people as possible. While this approach is indeed not very systematic, it will nevertheless build up knowledge and understanding of the music. By the way, a good introduction may be "Folk music and Dances of Ireland" by Breandán Breathnach. Cork, Dublin: Mercier, 1989 (1st ed. 1971). Maybe you can get it via library?

- Don't try to learn too much at a time. Before you start a practicing session, make clear to yourself what kind of technique or which phrase/tune you want to learn, i.e. good tone or smooth rolls or part A or timing or breath or …

- Record yourself, if possible. It may be hard at times, but it will be honest. Just like a mirror for the ears.

- From what I heard here and there, a good embouchure seems to be one of the very keys to master the instrument. If you feel the need of at least some support, you might want to work with some regular exercises. From personal experience, I can recommend this book: Konditionstraining für den Flötenansatz / Conditioning training for the flute embouchure. 101 daily exercises. German/English. By Werner Richter. Frankfurt/M.: Zimmermann,1992. ISBN (= international standard book number) 3 -921 729 54-8. If you're lucky, this one may also be available via library. You have to be able to read sheet music, though.

- Of course, the more effort you put into the stuff, the more results you will get. But in general, it seems that practicing a short - or, if it must be, very short - time every day is much better than practicing for a long time once a week.

These are the first things that come to my mind. I may of course have missed some very important points, so, as I said, pick out what you find useful - and don't stop asking other people. Oh, and I do have to apologize for my bad English!

Good luck on your journey, anyway,

Maurice

[GreySatyr]

@Julia, you're being to sound like an elitist with your "commercial crap" remark. If you don't like it then fine but I don't insult your tastes. Also, I was told that there is a month break in period on a new flute in which you only play a short amount of time a day. It's actually very hard for me to put it down in fact! I'm also trying to work on tone and I'm not trying to rush in and half ass play some songs before I can control my pitch and color.

I've a NUMBER of songs that I'm interested in learning but haven't the chance yet as I have family around that sleeps/works at odd hours and its been too cold to go outside.

I understand that the music I posted wasn't to your liking and that I'd most likely be bashed for it but give me a break and be helpful or nothing at all. You speak about wanting to play the flute and gathering information, well I'm here to gather information because I ant play the flute at the moment. I'm not here to defend my tastes and debate.

As for songs and music, I've been watching the "Tin Whistler" on YouTube.

Of course you'll probably find as many flaws as you can there as well.

[ytliek]

well I'm here to gather information because I ant play the flute at the moment. I'm not here to defend my tastes and debate.

While you are gathering information... here is a self taught folk player, John Hoban, his approach to music and life may be of interest, maybe not. Read his "nothing left to prove" page.
http://www.johnhoban.net/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=32
http://www.johnhoban.net/

As for songs and music, I've been watching the "Tin Whistler" on YouTube.

I too watch Tin Whistler although I prefer the whistle to the flute. Nice tootin'

[Julia Delaney]

Dear GS,
I've been called worse than an elitist on this forum so no offense taken. And you should not take offense just because I referred to some music you like as commercial crap. Because that's what it is and don't blame me for it. Somebody's got to tell you rather than let you go on living in error. For what it's worth, I still like ABBA and if that isn't commercial crap then I don't know what is. And please feel free, if you like, to insult my taste. It wouldn't be first time for that, either.
Of course I sound like an elitist. I play elite music. This music isn't for sissies. You should develop a thicker skin if you plan to hang around here and eventually go to sessions. You asked for guidance and I gave some to you. Actually, if your reference was to these kids (http://www.youtube.com/user/TinWhistler) I am delighted. There is still hope for you. I think they do all right. There is a lot to be critical of there but the clip is four years old now, and if they've stayed with it I'm sure they've gone a long way by this time. As will you, if you stick with it.
For what it's worth, play your new flute as much as you can. You won't hurt it.
Believe it or not, I am being gentle with you.
Love,
Julia

[GreySatyr]

Ytliek, that's some seriously insightful stuff and very inspiring. I love it. Thanks.

Julia, commercial crap is something like rap or pop, in my opinion. Anywho, your opinion doesn't matter. I like it so whatever. Whatever you were called you probably deserve it. You've got your head so far up your own butt you're liking to choke on your own hit.

And yes I was speaking about them. Apparently I will never play to your level so I don't know why you bother replying. You just love to rain on a parade. You know I'm trying damn hard to learn how to give the flute good tone and the right pitch and I want the master the basics before I learn the way or your way of elitist high horse crock.

It's hard enough to sort out facts from bull sh*t without debating someone who knows or claims to know everything. I guess it tales a real know it all to play Irish trad on flute. I guess I will never play it then since I will never claim such.

Okay so following your example of being rude and cocky and then trying to be friendly at the last, how long have you been playing?

I guess we should just be mature and stop conversing here and so that I will do.

[MTGuru]

Thread locked for moderator review.

[MTGuru]

GreySatyr ... Your beginner's enthusiasm is good, and you're welcome here. But let me make a few suggestions.

Twenty-five posts in your first few days here is probably "over-posting". Take some time to read older threads, which will answer many of your questions. And you don't have to reply to every post, even if you disagree with it. Post less and say less, read more and listen more is good beginner advice.

You said in your very first Chiffboard post that you're a "complete novice and idiot" , and in the title of this thread you explicitly ask for advice. But then you seem determined to fiercely defend your own novice opinions, and to argue with the expert advice and opinions you get. That makes no sense.

Just relax. Good advice doesn't always come with a candy coating. The contributors in this thread include top-level players and very experienced Irish trad musicians who have seen it all before, including beginner's mistakes and misconceptions.

Traditional music is not just a "genre". It's a culture, with real countries and peoples and history behind it. As a beginner, you are now the visitor in that culture, which you don't yet understand. And insulting the locals for volunteering to share the opinions and details of that culture with a newcomer will not get you far. Keep an open mind, be willing to unlearn some of what you think you already know, and you'll make good progress.

Julia's "crap" comment does skirt our "Pepsi rule". But your last post is way out of line, and a violation of our CCCP #1 policies. Hence the thread lock, which will stand.

I suggest you take some time, get some lessons, sessions, tunes and experience under your belt, and rejoin us posting when you're in a better position to sort things out. Good luck with your learning.

- Moderator