Posting clips

cocusflute · Post by **cocusflute** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:38 am

Hi Jem- here is some feedback. I offer this most respectfully, aware of your extensive background in fluting. Much of this is my own prejudice with regard to the music. A tune is four-square, like a box, and every corner must be filled and must be clearly and precisely marked. Too often ornaments obscure the corners of the box.
With reference to Maid at the Sewing Machine: I like your low-D crans very much. I find them expressive and well placed. They are very clean, if not as forceful as a pedal point would demand. But it is difficult to articulate the crans and still hit that hard D. The second time through the tune is much more forceful and much clearer. The start of the third part the second time through is also lovely, as you come onto the descending arpeggios very cleanly.
Some ornaments I found unnecessary. Your opening ornament in the first part is lovely and appropriate, but I didn't think so in the second part. I thought that some of the triplets stumbled and got in the way of the rhythm- as in the first ornament the first time through the second part. It gets in the way of the repeated arpeggios following the cran. You recovered very nicely and where ornaments are not overdone your rhythm is lovely. Your pacing is also excellent.
I especially liked the little variation you play throughout. The third part is also very tricky and very well played. You can hear every note. However at the beginning of that lovely fourth part -- which makes the tune so unusual and interesting -- your initial ornament the first time through is unnecessary. The ornament here detracts from the coming melody and the interesting repeated return to the F#. But it is well played. Most musicians avoid the fourth part. You tackle it fearlessly and do a great job of it. The second time through the whole tune is played much simpler and cleaner. My perception is that ornaments make you tense, that you are thinking they are appropriate and necessary, when really they are not.
Much of what I say also applies to the second tune. There simply isn't a need for so many rolls. The rhythm is sacrificed to the technique. The tune would have more lift if you left some finger work out and let the simple melody express itself without the player getting in the way. I'd love to hear you play the tune with absolutely no ornamentation, or very little, as you do later in the tune.
Ornamentation is like wit; as my old professor would say, wit enhances learning but is no substitute for it. You have all the wit and technique that you need. Use a bit less of it and you'll be a fine player. I hope it's obvious that if I didn't respect your playing I'd not have offered so lengthy a critique.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:13 am

David/Cocusflute - thankyou so much for giving me the time and thought you've put into your coments. I really appreciate that - and the comments themselves.

In my 3/5ths of a lifetime of fluting, I have too rarely recorded myself with the purpose of listening back as a self-assessing tool - mostly haven't had the technology to do so readily. Now that it is so much easier, and with the incentive of this thread, I'm finding it very useful (hence the minor disgruntlement when no feedback offered!). Much of what you say was becoming apparent to me myself, but it is great to have it so well expressed - makes it easier to direct my attentions to specific things I need to work on.

One query regarding your comments on Kiss me Darling - you said you "especially liked the little variation you play throughout," - and I'm not sure to what you are referring - probably because whatever it is is an integral part of the setting I have (EDIT - see below). Incidentally, I thought the reason many folk don't play the 4th part is because there are quite a lot of settings of it in print and local aural practice that simply don't give it (like the 6th part of Kid on the Mountain in O'Neills that no-one ever plays or the 4th part of the Monaghan Jig) - not because it is particularly difficult (it isn't). I recall that when I first learnt it (about 25 years ago!) I had trouble remembering the correct sequence - Afd Bfd Afd - had a tendency to do all As - because it was an unusual pattern - but it isn't technically hard. I had a similar experience recently when learning Dinky Dorian's, in the B music where it pedals first on A, then on B and the fingers and mind's ear wanted, by force of habit, to go to the second pedal as a G - took a few days persistent practice to sort it out, but such things are not about a real difficulty of fingering etc., just habits/familiarity.

For interest's sake, I've paused while writing this and tried to play through Knocknagow stripping out the bulk of the ornamentation. Trouble is, they're VERY ingrained! Talk about habit! (Reminds me of recent threads about learning/remembering tunes etc.) It's really hard to do consistently without losing myself - which means it is a good thing to work at!

Ah! Now this is interesting! I've just been to look up the source from which I learnt Kiss/Maid. It is the very first tune in the 1st volume of Ceol Rince. If I understand the sourcing info in the back correctly (in Gaelic, which I don't speak!), Breathnach got his version from Sean Potts. The little quadruplet ornament at the start of the 4th section is in the notation - which obviously is why I play it! Perils of learning from dots??????

As I responded to Arbo, perceptions, perceptions! Other peoples' perceptions are valuable precisely because they are non-contextualised and from a different perspective. And the whole thing about reconsidering what ones is doing/trying to do, how and why! Re-listening to oneself trying to do so in the light of comments received is quite different from simply re-listening to oneself to see if one achieved what one set out to by one's own referents. One cannot hear oneself quite as others do, of course, nor without self-reference; one cannot truly step outside one's own perceptions, but feedback such as this certainly helps to broaden and re-direct the process. Really useful, guys, thanks!

Any more from any more?

Oh yeah, and what about H o B (I'm getting greedy now!)

rama · Post by **rama** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:18 pm

h o b... very nice, i'm listening as i write. i like the tempo, has an easy steady flow to it. imo, another tune matt molloy's playing sorta set the bar on and influences the way many fluters approach it. but i'm glad i hear 'jem' coming thru on your clip (that's a good thing/compliment). wouldn't want it any other way.

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:31 pm

A Scone for Breakfast

A fellow at our session wrote this tune. You can hear me mangle it horribly with my terrible beginner-ness. But it's such a cute tune that perhaps you will be inspired to spread its happiness to other parts of the world.

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:57 pm

Jem, since you are specifically asking, I'll give my opinion. I listened to Kiss Me Darling.

There's something I hear in there that I don't particularly like. I can't say that it's quite vibrato, but that's the word I want to use. Any note that is of any length seems to have a waviness to it. It gives a sense of messy rhythm or uncertainty to the tune.

Of course, I am not worthy to give such criticism as I can barely reproduce the music at all, and according to some, I have no concept of the music at all anyway. But it's something I hear others do sometimes that in my opinion doesn't sound all that good.

ImNotIrish · Post by **ImNotIrish** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:52 pm

Hey all, just for comparative purposes I uploaded a version of maid at the spinning wheel and humors of ballyloughlin. Maid happens to be the three part version (never learned the fourth part, but I guess I can now-thanks Jem!). Both tunes are played on my original R&R.
Arbo

http://public.box.net/imnotirish73470

ImNotIrish · Post by **ImNotIrish** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:00 pm

Diane,

lovely job with the Scone tune. Nice and steady, and the ornaments are popping right out. Keep up the great work.

Arbo

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:36 am

Arbo - great sound as always (showing all the better with the "clean" recording!) and it is always interesting to hear different takes on tunes, as Rama said. One criticism, if I may (knowing my own timing wasn't 100% spot on!) - especially in H o B some of your timing is off - you lose the pulse at times, especially on those sequential crans where you get ahead of the beat.

I'm going to respond to Diane about vibrato below - just to comment here that on his held notes at the end of both these tunes Arbo does a big breath vibrato! Not criticising, just noting, and also wondering if you do it purposely, Arbo?

sbfluter wrote:Jem, since you are specifically asking, I'll give my opinion. I listened to Kiss Me Darling.

There's something I hear in there that I don't particularly like. I can't say that it's quite vibrato, but that's the word I want to use. Any note that is of any length seems to have a waviness to it. It gives a sense of messy rhythm or uncertainty to the tune.

Of course, I am not worthy to give such criticism as I can barely reproduce the music at all, and according to some, I have no concept of the music at all anyway. But it's something I hear others do sometimes that in my opinion doesn't sound all that good.

Diane, thankyou too for commenting. I've said recently that I think anyone who is prepared to listen carefully and comment thoughtfully is absolutely entitled to do so, and I think that by posting clips here at all one is inherently "specifically asking" for feedback. One does not have to be expert to listen analytically - and trying to listen analytically is also part of learning. (Cut the "unworthy" c**p! You make your own worth by what you do and say - and you're doing just fine.)

I'm not totally sure what it is you are hearing, but you've made me go listen for it - if you say you can hear something, I'm sure you can and it is worth me trying to find out the what and why of it. I certainly do not deliberately play with a constant vibrato in the classical way (not classically trained anyway), but I have sometimes been told in the past that I was playing with vibrato when I wasn't aware of it. I suspect it may be a diaphragm tension induced thing and certainly not voluntary, but something to be conquered and eliminated if so, and certainly a point worth raising. Must say I don't particularly noticeably hear it listening back to myself on these clips - but then I'm used to my own sound and this is all about trying to listen differently. There was a deliberate smidgen of finger vibrato on the held note at the end of Knocknagow, though.

BTW, Scone for Breakfast is nicely played - you get a bit lost at the end of the first A music as you know, but otherwise carry it through very well with a good flow and sense of the melody. I think you are using a sensible amount of ornamentation and doing that well. I'd suggest that work on embouchure focus would be the most useful thing for you at present, based on this showing.

Scone (rhymes with "gone", not "tone") for breakfast though? Heresy! They're for afternoon cream teas! Strange American perversions! (Like peanut butter and jam!!!!) You'll be telling us you're little enders next....... (mind you, eating boiled eggs at all is pretty perverse).

rama wrote:h o b... very nice, i'm listening as i write. i like the tempo, has an easy steady flow to it. imo, another tune matt molloy's playing sorta set the bar on and influences the way many fluters approach it. but i'm glad i hear 'jem' coming thru on your clip (that's a good thing/compliment). wouldn't want it any other way.

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:26 pm

Here are the dots for the settings I have of Kiss Me Darling and Knocknagow. I haven't got ABCs of these typed up, though.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/21025933@N05/2048012284/" title="Kiss Me Darling & Knocknagow by jemtheflute, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2310/204 ... 8807_o.jpg" width="650" height="730" alt="Kiss Me Darling & Knocknagow" /></a>

sbfluter · Post by **sbfluter** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:48 pm

Scones are delicious for breakfast. Over here they come as big as a plate filled with berries or nuts or perhaps lemon or orange zest. No butter or jam necessary.

With one of our giant cups of coffee it's the breakfast of champions. Well, of champion Lance Armstrong weekend-wannabes anyway.

ImNotIrish · Post by **ImNotIrish** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:29 pm

Jem, thanks for listening to HoB. I agree with your comment about the unsteady rhythm. If I get a chance this week I'll gve it another go. Did you hear the same with the Maid tune? Thanks again for all the feedback. I feel like I have some specific things to work on now.
Arbo

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm

ImNotIrish wrote:Jem, thanks for listening to HoB. I agree with your comment about the unsteady rhythm. If I get a chance this week I'll gve it another go. Did you hear the same with the Maid tune? Thanks again for all the feedback. I feel like I have some specific things to work on now.
Arbo

Yes, but not as much/bad......

Have fun! We now expect the 4th part - no excuses now I've put up the dots too!!!!! (Only joking.)

mahanpots · Post by **mahanpots** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:10 am

Jem,

Nice version of Humours of Ballyloughlin. I've been extremely busy this past couple of weeks with a show and will continue with the busy-ness for the rest of the holiday season as I'm a potter and this time of year is when I sell lots of pots. Otherwise, I would have responded earlier.

I listened and re-listened and re-listened to the flute version, and the only criticism I can offer is that the tune seems to drag just a bit here and there. That is, there are notes here and there that are held a little longer than their equivalent neighbors, and to me, it makes the tune drag a little. Sort of the equivalent of someone dragging their feet as they go for a walk, as opposed to walking with their head up.

I thought your version on the low whistle was better in regard to this. If I can make the time, I will upload a version of the Humours on my Shaw low D, which I'm still trying to make sense of.

I enjoyed the other tunes as well, although I haven't learned them. I think I heard the Maid at the Spinning Wheel at a session in Ireland a couple of years ago and wrote the name down on the inside of my wooden flute box. Thanks for sharing.

Respectfully,

Michael

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:21 am

Thanks, Michael. I'd spotted some time-keeping issues myself - there's at least one spot where I get slightly ahead of the proper beat.

I know you're busy - more power to your pottering and good Xmas sales! - but can't help wondering (when you can make time) what you think about the C nat roll issue/thread, since that's where doing these tunes at all came from.

mahanpots · Post by **mahanpots** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:13 am

Jem,

I thought your C natural rolls work just fine. Sounds good from what I can hear. I keep wanting to plug my laptop into it's amplified speakers, but I haven't. I think I could hear better then.

So, I thought I'd send a clip of Humours of Ballyloughlin on my Shaw low d. Including the flub-ups.

I've been playing the low d for the past couple of days and my left wrist is beginning to pain me. I'm learning to change my left-hand grip to more of a piper's grip, but then that takes a while. It's funny the way a little change like that can mess you up.

Any comments welcome.

http://www.box.net/shared/nsgza0en9d

Cheers,

Michael

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humours of c natural rolls