The Flute Market : Supply & Demand

[cocusflute]

The best way to send a flute, IMHO, is to send it registered. Insure it for just enough to have the "Insured" sticker on the package. Registered means that it is signed for every step of the way and kept in a locked cage until picked up and signed for by the end receiver. It is the safest way to ship.
Shipping via national post (USPS or Royal Mail) entails far less hassle and expense than using a private commercial shipper. I've done this lots of times - with far fewer problems that sending or receiving by a private carrier, both in and out of the US and Ireland, and within either country.

[Blackwood]

Customs in the UK are a Royal Pain (pardon the pun).

They often slap on outragous duties on flutes and quite frankly often arbitrary. What seems to set them off is if a flute is insured.

So 2 ways around it is to ship the flute as "Flute/Instrument Repair" as well as not insuring it for the full amount.

[sbfluter]

In the end, I bought a gorgeous flute on ebay a few months ago which is absolutely my holy grail, so my quest is over.

What was the holy grail of flutes for you?

After trying a few flutes I'm realizing my CB Folk Flute is close to holy grail status. The only thing missing is tuning slide and being in 3 pieces for easy travel. Otherwise, the sound, the playability, everything is perfect.

[eilam]

holy grail flute to me, would be one that years later, you see that you never out grew it.
not the one that today seems like "it" then, a month from now, i'm back surfing Doc's site.
for the past month plus, i have been playing this Rod Cameron R&R type flute, i can't get a very solid tone out of it, and am not even sure that i had a "moment" with it, but i feel that i can learn the correct embouchure for it, and it will become a killer flute.

i know that some flutes that i have are very easy players, always open and big tone, but maybe not challenging enough to create these "moments", i don't feel that connected to them, and over time, they don't hold my interest.

i will say, that i too, have one of C.B R&R type flutes that i love and will keep for ever, while others, that are more sought after flutes and are great, but i'm not sure that i will end up keeping.

so - are we allowed a few holly grail flutes? if so, that is one, as well as my Noy and R&R and Olwell and Hammy ..............maybe the Cameron too............

[jemtheflute]

Back to something close to the original thrust of this thread: have folks noticed the prices achieved by two Bb band flutes ("fifes") on eBay recently? The general run of these things go in the £25-60 range, but these two! This one finished tonight and achieved £500. Another went last week for £510. There's another up now - mis-described as a piccolo - which hasn't reached its reserve at £460. We're talking Hawkes & Son Crown AZ, BTW.

Incidentally, there's also a low Bb ebonite cylindrical bore high pitch one on sale currently.

So, generally Bb treble band flutes/fifes do not command significant prices, especially High Pitch ones, but there is clearly a specialist demand for this particular marque which puts a disproportionate premium on them! Market forces!

To comment on the general theme - I agree with the people who think that a general economic malaise is the chief cause of slow demand at present, and not just with flutes! It is certainly affecting my main work as a taxi driver - the local night-life has been draining away for about two years now, and more noticeably in the last six months. The house-price nonsense we've had in Britain is leaving people with no spare disposable income, although there is work and consumer prices have been stable and interest rates low. However, I also agree with the optimists who think there will always be new customers exploring the market - just look at the regular appearance of newbies over on the whistle forum seeking advice on first or upgrade whistles. I think they are there in the flute market too. Sure, supply is far better now than it was twenty or even ten years ago, certainly as far as concerns the availability of new-build instruments at a range of prices in a range of designs and quality. Forty-thirty years ago every junk shop had cheap old wooden flutes. By the late 1970s, as the ITM/"Folk" music and the Period Instrument movements grew to significant size outside their heartlands in the post-hippy era, demand (and increased awareness by dealers) made the antiques increasingly scarce and only found in specialist outlets. (Paul Davies and Sam Murray had 'em all!) The makers began to emerge and eventually we arrived at todays situation. But the worldwide interest and participation in this kind of music making continues to grow - look at the growth of interest and participation and the rise in standards in Scotland, for example, in the last 15 years or so. And think of all the Irish kids at the fleadh etc. with Seerys or similar, who before would have only had whistles or beat up antiques - and there are more of them every year, funnily enough!

[CranberryDog]

As a musician, I ask you; apart from Mick Jagger, how many of you have a lot of disposable income? Cyril.

[pandscarr]

What was the holy grail of flutes for you?

8-key "early" Wilkes - he's a genius!

[Flutered]

But the worldwide interest and participation in this kind of music making continues to grow - look at the growth of interest and participation and the rise in standards in Scotland, for example, in the last 15 years or so. And think of all the Irish kids at the fleadh etc. with Seerys or similar, who before would have only had whistles or beat up antiques - and there are more of them every year, funnily enough!

Yes, perhaps there is some growth in interest in traditional flute playing, though I would observe that even here in Ireland, interest in trad. music is very much in the minority. You'd have to go out of your way in most parts of Ireland to find people to play with just as you'd have to seek out Irish speakers in most places if you wanted to converse 'as Gaeilge'.

But people give up flute playing all the time too, I would think. Although apparently a simple instrument, it's not that easy to play it well, is it?? Given that good flutes should last many years a good proportion of these should be coming back and available to new players. I would hope that not many would end up being chucked in the bin (garbage) like a kitchen appliance, a few years old or whatever. Maybe some day there will exist a flute mountain or perhaps that should be a flute forest.

[boatgirl]

I don't know about the current supply and demand situation. My personal situation is that I love musical instruments and am self taught on a few out of cost savings. I would love to learn the flute but with a learner flute priced at over $300 I can nary afford it! Let alone a violin or cello. I would love to teach my children as well. It's disgusting. I cannot believe it is actually so costly to make these intruments, I believe the mark up on them is absurd. Bear in mind I am speaking of learner instruments.

Regards.

[Gordon]

I don't know about the current supply and demand situation. My personal situation is that I love musical instruments and am self taught on a few out of cost savings. I would love to learn the flute but with a learner flute priced at over $300 I can nary afford it! Let alone a violin or cello. I would love to teach my children as well. It's disgusting. I cannot believe it is actually so costly to make these intruments, I believe the mark up on them is absurd. Bear in mind I am speaking of learner instruments.

Regards.

Wooden flutes, or those made from Delrin, are handmade. There really isn't any "starter" instrument, nor any real mark-up. Most of the makers cover cost, and try to make a bit of a living above that. Nothing absurd about it. The few flutes made from molded plastic (Aulos baroque flutes, for eg), are almost as pricey because - unlike plastic recorders -there's simply not a wide market for the process involved in making them.
If you just want a starter flute at a reasonable price, something like Doug Tipple's PVC flutes, or a bamboo flute, both of which come in under $100 - these would be your best bet. But if you want anything like a real wooden flute, you'll be lucky to find something decent in the $300 range. Life is not always fair.

[jemtheflute]

I don't know about the current supply and demand situation. My personal situation is that I love musical instruments and am self taught on a few out of cost savings. I would love to learn the flute but with a learner flute priced at over $300 I can nary afford it! Let alone a violin or cello. I would love to teach my children as well. It's disgusting. I cannot believe it is actually so costly to make these intruments, I believe the mark up on them is absurd. Bear in mind I am speaking of learner instruments.

Regards.

Whilst I fully sympathise with you about the unaffordability for many "ordinary folk" of equipment for so many activities one would like to try/get one's children to try, I think you maybe have unrealistic expectations! £150/U$300 is pretty cheap in comparative terms (as I and others have pointed out on other threads) with say sports gear or computer gaming equipment or many specialist hobbies. People seem quite happy to pay $100s for fashion "training" shoes that won't last 6 months but then baulk at spending the same on musical instruments that might last a lifetime, or at least start a lifetime's passion! Of course that fact doesn't make it any more affordable if one just hasn't got the money! And yes, cellos, bassoons, the larger saxophones etc. are a lot dearer - but then, they're bigger and more complicated.

One can pick up perfectly sound basic level second hand Boehm flutes on eBay for around £50/U$100 with a little patience and discernment (do some proper research first!) - or you could try Freecycle! Starter kit Chinese violins go for about £40 in Britain - they're not "good" but they are decently usable at the level they are aimed at. About the same price as a tennis racket? Mass manufactured but perfectly acceptable tin whistles go for about £3.50/U$7.00! Doug Tipple's flutes are quite good enough for beginners for folk music and cost a fraction of what you said - or you could follow his and Guido Gonzato's online instructions for making your own simple flutes and whistles for a very few dollars! Get the kids to make their own with your guidance! As for the prices of "starter" flutes you'll see mentioned here, like Sweethearts or Burnses or M&E or Seery etc, please bear in mind that these things are individually handmade by craftsmen in workshops with expensive specialist machinery. The raw materials may not be expensive, but the work-time in production, not to mention the accumulated skills and expertise and what it took to acquire those, are very much a necessary consideration in setting prices so that the makers can make a living (most are sole craftsmen/traders, not commercial companies). Have a go at the ready-made tube DIY things yourself and you will start to understand. We are not talking about the same sort of mark-up that applies in mass-manufactured retail, though I doubt that your high-street music retailer selling brand new Yamaha flutes would agree that his mark-up on the factory/wholesale price was excessive, let alone "absurd".

I have no idea about wage levels in the ?good? 'ol USofA, but for the sake of argument, let's assume a minimum unskilled wage equivalent to ours in G.B. of about $11 an hour. You yourself wouldn't want to work for less, I'd assume. A DIY whistle made of materials costing say $4.00 (and we'll ignore in this example the cost of any tools you may buy because you can use them over and over) would take about two-three hours to make - probably rather longer first time, maybe less with practice, and you could sort out a one-man production process to economise on time and effort, but lets say a practised average time of about two hours per whistle. So that's worth $22 plus your $4 for materials. Sell it (if it's good enough to inflict on the public and there's any demand!) for $26 and you just about get paid for your labour in making it - if you were paying an employee to make it, that represents NO profit as it leaves the workshop. Put that hourly rate to one for a skilled worker (once you become so) and you'd expect rather more. Include your proper overheads for tools and premises and power etc. etc..... and allow that you have to price your product not just on costs plus hourly rates per unit, but on what you need to earn from what you can actually sell in order to be viable as a business/make a living as an individual, and you'll start to see what is involved. So, what price a hand-made flute, even in a cheap material like Delrin, made by a highly skilled and practised craftsman and probably representing at least two working days' work?

Your "disgust" is misplaced.

[Jayhawk]

Jem - the US minimum wage is $5.85 per hour. Some states have higher (it's $6.50 in Missouri where I live), but our minimum wage is not a living minimum wage.

Boatgirl - definitely try making your own. It might take a few tries, but for less than $10 of PVC you'll have plenty to spare even if the first few don't play well. A hand drill with bits makes life easier, but you can do it with a pocket knife and file if you have the patience...oh, and you need a ruler or tape measure as well.

FWIW - I feel for you on the finances thing. The first 10 years of my marriage we were working minimum wage jobs while I worked my way through college...money was unbelievably short so I played tin whistle at that point in my life. I have a keyed flute now, but my first flutes were homemade from PVC or bamboo from the local garden center.

Eric

[boatgirl]

Thanks Eric. I happen to be married to a nonmusical man but he is extremely skilled as a craftsman and has already said he would like to try making something for me. I didn't know it was possible to make a decent sounding flute. Like you, for now I play my tin whistle! Any suggestions as to how to get started?

BTW I don't dispute the work and costs that go into making instruments but do you seriously think they don't put a hefty mark up on them? Personally I found instruments (other than guitar and percussion) to be much more readily available as well as affordable in the UK per income.
Thanks,
boatgirl

[Jayhawk]

Boatgirl - I started TW by listening to lots of CDs and using a small, spiral bound Mel-Bay tinwhistle book. I can't recall it's name, but it got me going (it may have simply been Beginning Tin Whistle or something close to that).

Eric

[jim stone]

I think you will find that some of the people making
beginners instruments are struggling financially
and living near poverty level. People who make
instruments as a hobby, funded by something
else are one thing, but making a living this
way can be a tough row to hoe.

Also this is for most of these folks a labor of
love. If they were into making money they
would be doing something else.

By the way there are beginners instruments
at about 100 dollars or less, e.g.
the Hammy Hamilton practice flute
and the Doug Tipple PVC flute.
Also at 200, there's Dixon maple
flute.

Check The Irish Flute Store or
search on Doug Tipple.