This would be a ineresting design for a metal Conical flute

The Chiff & Fipple Irish Flute on-line community. Sideblown for your protection.
Cork
Posts: 3128
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:02 am
antispam: No

Post by Cork »

Terry McGee wrote:
Cork wrote:
Terry McGee wrote: Certainly, Sir, I'll have one of my tailors slip round in the morning for a measuring. Is Sir thinking Pratten, Rudall, Clinton, GLP or other?...
An all silver flute is my preference.
Understood. But an all-silver conical flute could be based on any bore, just as an all-wooden flute can be. What should it be? Just have faith in Mr Clinton, or go with one of the regulars?

Terry
Frankly, I am not a flute maker, so as a player I must rely on those who are able to make flutes.

I think Jon said it right, in that the appropriate dimensions are already known, perhaps more as a matter of physics and less as a matter of any particular (anybody's) design. Moreover, although this thread appears centered on the first two flutes as shown, as examples (and thank you, Jon), which presumably exist only as museum specimens, and considering that they likely are not of modern, A=440 tuning, it appears that whatever next configuration could more be a matter of practical interpretation, by whomever could produce such a thing.

As a player, I do not ask for perfection, as I have long learned to adjust. However, IMO, there are better flutes, and not. So, to whomever could make such a flute, please do the best as you can, and the flute playing community likely would respond, in kind, thank you!
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 3338
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Post by Terry McGee »

Not just in museums - I've played two in private hands which are in regular use. Here's the one we're using for the recording:

Image

Like a lot of flutes at the time (just after mid 19th century), it has some tuning anomalies that we wouldn't want to replicate today. But nothing that we haven't had to deal with in other flutes. So perhaps as good a place as any to start with in a modern version. We certainly know it works, and works very well, as the recording will demonstrate.

Terry
Cork
Posts: 3128
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:02 am
antispam: No

Post by Cork »

Terry McGee wrote:Not just in museums - I've played two in private hands which are in regular use. Here's the one we're using for the recording:

Image

Like a lot of flutes at the time (just after mid 19th century), it has some tuning anomalies that we wouldn't want to replicate today. But nothing that we haven't had to deal with in other flutes. So perhaps as good a place as any to start with in a modern version. We certainly know it works, and works very well, as the recording will demonstrate.

Terry
Terry, I thank you.

Doug
User avatar
Casey Burns
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:27 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Kingston WA
Contact:

Post by Casey Burns »

I pondered this concept of an all metal conical flute myself and its something I've been mentally toying with, just to eventually do it some day if I ever find myself caught up with nothing else to do and am bored to tears. I want to try it just to teach myself some techniquery but it requires some major prototyping and tooling up for turning it into something I could perhaps regularly manufacture. I just don't have the time in my schedule though! Replacing some of the tools I use on a daily basis with new and better ones remains a better use of my tooling-up time! And my production time is best spent trying to get waiting orders out to my ever and increasingly patient clientele (see footnote).

Some thoughts of how it could be done: Making the mandrel for the bore is the easy part. That is just like making a reamer except you don't need to make a cutting edge Then there are the blocks of lead (ugh! Not something I want to handle on a regular basis! Or at all!) and the heavy hydraulic press required to squeeze the bodies through the lead to the right shape, such as what Michael Copeland does for his whistle bodies. Another possibility would be to use a softer or even annealed silver and using metal spinning techniques try to fit it to the mandrel. Or maybe a combination of the two techniques. Probably if/when I try it for the one time I'll start with sheet silver and bend it around a metal mandrel, wire it up, withdraw the metal mandrel and insert one made from charcoal, flux it and solder it, then spin it to size. The headjoint and socket/tenon parts could be simply made from tubing.

Another way to try this would be to find telescoping tubing and make a flute in a similar fashion to David Daye's "Penny Chanter". But that would be heavy and ugly and miss the whole point of this! Its too bad that the K&S tubing stops at 21/32nds.

In the old version discussed they put risers for the embouchure and the fingerholes to duplicate wall thickness. However, a simple flute could be made with simple fingerholes like on a whistle and the embouchure with a raised cast chimney and lip plate such as is done on a modern flute. The flute could be made in a simple 2 piece configuration. In a well drawn hard thin walled silver this could theoretically be a very nice instrument, and if well voiced, very responsive. Good for any climate as there would be no chance of it cracking ever. You could even pour your Guinness through it! Dishwasher Safe. And like the modern flute it could be done up in other precious alloys such as Rose Gold, Platinum, etc. And richly engraved like what they do with saxophones, adding much to the playing qualities of the instrument. Or so someone would eventually claim when these eventually take off as the Next Best Thing since Buttered Toast!

A number of things to overcome though. It is nice to have wall thickness for voicing the fingerholes and balancing the octaves by undercutting and this would be impossible without adding the fingerhole risers such as on that original. Without, the flute could be somewhat squirrely to grip. Keys could be easily soldered on but then compound the finger ergonomics. One could add the much maligned Boehm Crutch (I did this to my old Artley in 9th grade, using a Lyre post from a clarinet).

The thing I find interesting is this fascination with such concepts as this (as well as plastic flutes in Delrin) as if this represents an improvement and the eventual evolution of the instrument for the better. They tried this with other instruments such as Clarinets (search for metal clarinet on eBay and you will see several that would make a good lamp), Guitars (think of the plastic backed dull sounding Overtons) and Violins (Stroh fiddles) whereas the best practice remains wood-based, even if the wooden ones require a few seconds attention to proper care in our otherwise throw-away society. People should not fear wood, even if things occasionally split.

My conclusion is that these concepts, while interesting, are a distraction and are anything but the further development. Just a side branch. The Irish Flute in wood is a vestige of a main branch, having been revived in the past century as Irish music underwent a resurgence. In the flute universe the Irish Flute is the Walking Dead. There are several interesting and already tried abandoned flute design paths, well documented in histories of the flute such as "The Flute" by Philip Bate, still the best flute history written and much easier to read than some more recently written tomes, some of which are so dense they warp gravity. Some of these designs are very intriguing and lovely such as the crystal flutes of Laurent, Georgi Flutes, Burghley's Alto Flute experiments and the Albisphon.

There is one variation worth someone trying someday and that would be making a conical bored metal Boehm flute. It would have all the modern flute ergonomics and key systems but with a good bore the lovely sound of our Rudalls and Prattens. The modern flute with its cylindrical bore is still really a fife and weak in the overtones. Wooden headjoints only go a small way to getting the reedy sounds we get out of our conical bored flutes. Its the shape of the bore, not the material the flute is made from!

An aside. This topic reminds me of some of my less brilliant decisions made earlier in my flute making career. I was easily distracted. Usually what happened was someone wanted to try some novel idea, and have their flute maker make this or some other monstrosity for them and make their fantasies come true, such as weird key systems inspired by Radcliffe or whatever if one confines it to just flutes. In my earlier days I was an easy mark for such activities and I spent many hours prototyping such things to little or no advancement of my career or progress to my queue, not to mention the eventual major crisis when the rent and other bills came due - surprisingly when these were supposed to be. Always, the client wanted to only pay for the "retail priced" product once it was done - as if these things were now fully figured out and in full production. Never anything for the head scratching, technique learning curves, tooling up, materials wasted, and failed attempts and setbacks. Or paying for the final effort if it was less than perfect, however defined by their fantasies.

Eventually I knew better. Perhaps the only benefit to my career from these activities was learning that these interesting concepts were far from the mainstream and that conservatively sticking to the mainstream was much, much better for my survival! Now when someone wants me to try the untried I have to weigh opportunity costs and the advancement of my career and keeping my current clients happy Vs. prototyping costs and materials, all billable to the client up front and this client is usually aghast at the 5 or 6 figure price that gets quoted. Now I don't even bother to calculate, I just start the bidding at $250K, which effectively ends this usually. I've had a few try to even convince me that these grandiose ideas will really take off some day and that I am missing out on some huge opportunity by becoming the inventor of something that will eventually rival the Pianoforte and render it to obscurity and that all of these prototyping costs etc. I should cover myself. If they think it is such a great idea, they should try it out themselves!

(Footnote - a few of you know I've been fighting some strange health symptoms for the past few years. These have been hell on my scheduled promises! After testing for about everything else, recent lab tests just confirmed that I'm suffering from tick borne Lyme Disease. Caught here in Washington State. I call it the Borrelian Plague, as if it was something you could catch in a Star Trek episode. Its an emerging disease found nearly everywhere, not just New England - learn about it, especially if you or your loved ones are suffering from any unexplained chronic symptoms. See www.lymenet.org and become educated.)
Cork
Posts: 3128
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:02 am
antispam: No

Post by Cork »

I believe you are correct to assume that a conical bore silver flute of the sort mentioned here, as above, likely would have but a limited market potential, perhaps a hundred such flutes, or maybe even a few hundred such flutes, but likely not enough to bank a career on. Moreover, were I a flute maker, I likely would first test the waters, by approaching various flute playing communities, to get some idea as to just how realistic such an endeavor could be. That is, given the whole of all start up costs, including R&D, tooling and materials, could there be at least enough consumer interest to justify such a project, to then be able to sell a flute at anywhere near a reasonable price, where perhaps 250K/each could not be so reasonable?

I think that this would make a great flute, but that's only my opinion.
srt19170
Posts: 318
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 6:00 pm

Post by srt19170 »

Casey Burns wrote: (Footnote - a few of you know I've been fighting some strange health symptoms for the past few years. These have been hell on my scheduled promises! After testing for about everything else, recent lab tests just confirmed that I'm suffering from tick borne Lyme Disease.
Sorry to hear that! Lyme Disease is not uncommon out here in Virginia (and getting worse) and I've known several people with similar experiences. Apparently it is hard to diagnose! Hopefully now that they've had a diagnosis they can treat it effectively.
mcdafydd
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:51 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: My wife and I moved back to beautiful Central Vermont and I need to update my Location! Thanks much...
Location: Central Vermont

Post by mcdafydd »

Have any widely-made conical flutes of yore had bores at the beginning of the taper that approach 19mm, to accommodate modern Boehm-style headjoints? I know Boehm added the taper to his headjoint to correct for the cylindrical bore octave tuning, but how would this type of headjoint affect a conical bore? Of course, maybe now we're talking a really weird market of Boehm players with expensive headjoints playing them on simple system metal flutes.. hmmmm.

A lot of the French metal, simple system flutes that I've seen (maybe all of them?) are cylindrical like the Chapelain pictured on Terry's website. Has anyone ever played on one of these?

I wonder how many of Clinton's flutes for India actually made it to India..
User avatar
mahanpots
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:32 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: seagrove, nc usa
Contact:

Post by mahanpots »

Casey Burns wrote:
Its the shape of the bore, not the material the flute is made from!
I made some drums out of clay many years ago, and somewhere along the line, I was reading up on different materials for drums and came across the statement: "wood sings while metal rings."

Just wondering if this makes any sense to flute makers instead of drum makers.

Michael
Olwell Pratten.
Paddy Cronin's Jig
Limestone Rock, Silver Spear
Blasting, billowing, bursting forth with the power of 10 billion butterfly sneezes
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 3338
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Post by Terry McGee »

Wood sings while metal rings probably is significant to the drummer, as the drummer's blows are likely to excite any resonances in the container of the drum and its attachments. The fluter player's gentle blows are unlikely to. As Casey points out, the material a flute is made from is not that likely to make acoustic difference. But it can make aerodynamic difference, and I think that can be the attraction of the metal or delrin flute, when properly and carefully made. Indeed, a simple-system metal conical flute should be more efficient than a Boehm metal flute, as it has fewer and smaller holes to mess with the airflow. That's my memory of the FFI - free-flowing, easy and fun to play.

How many made it to India - probably few if any. It appears not to have been a runaway seller - there only appear to be a few extant and they all have very close serial numbers. I think there could be lots of reasons for this. Coming out around 1860 (1857 was the date of the relevant patent), it's getting late for introducing new simple-system flutes (Boehm's cylindrical had been out for 13 years). The military was a conservative purchaser (viz the boxwood and ivory flutes they were still using), and would no doubt have found the FFI a bit on the weird side, as well as rather expensive. They were used to dealing with the big firms - Rudall Carte, Boosey and Potters - who charged them about 1/3 of the price of the FFI. And possibly Clinton himself had other things on his mind. The patent on the Boehm bore was about to run out, and Clinton had some really interesting ideas of how to make that flute considerably better, as he was to prove in the 1862 Great Exhibition.

On fitting Boehm heads to conical bodies - you end up with a very out-of-tune flute. Both the cylindrical and conical flutes (so called) have tapers to compensate for the way we pout more in the second octave. If you taper both ends you end up overcompensated, which is just as bad as being non-compensated (the straight cylindrical model).

I don't think Casey was saying they would cost $250K each, Cork. Just the first one; subsequent ones would be cheaper once the system was in place. I'd probably go for the second one, once you have yours!

I do agree with Casey that the maker who does end up making this flute is not likely to find it a big money spinner (just as Clinton didn't). I think it's just one of those things that has to be done, some time. Sigh.

Terry
mcdafydd
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:51 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: My wife and I moved back to beautiful Central Vermont and I need to update my Location! Thanks much...
Location: Central Vermont

Post by mcdafydd »

Terry McGee wrote:How many made it to India - probably few if any.
Thanks for the history on that. I think you had mentioned at some point that there are only seven extant FFIs? It's nice to get some more details that paint a likely conclusion for what happened to that model.
On fitting Boehm heads to conical bodies - you end up with a very out-of-tune flute.
Point taken, thanks!
Cork
Posts: 3128
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:02 am
antispam: No

Post by Cork »

BTW, Mr. Burns and Mr. McGee, it's not my point to ignite any competition, here, as given each of your outstanding reputations, I'd be quite glad to place an order with each of you, in regard to a modern Flute for India, thank you!
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 3338
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Post by Terry McGee »

Ah, that seemed to work, Casey. $250k for both of us ....

Terry
Cork
Posts: 3128
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:02 am
antispam: No

Post by Cork »

Terry McGee wrote:Ah, that seemed to work, Casey. $250k for both of us ....

Terry
Congratulations!

:-D
User avatar
Denny
Posts: 24005
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:29 am
antispam: No
Location: N of Seattle

Post by Denny »

aw, Cork!

You should throw in an additional 100-150k to the maker of the flute you like better when they're done!

Kinda like competition flute making, eh! Get 'em incented!
User avatar
Jon C.
Posts: 3526
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I restore 19th century flutes, specializing in Rudall & Rose, and early American flutes. I occasionally make new flutes. Been at it for about 15 years.
Location: San Diego

Post by Jon C. »

Terry McGee wrote:Ah, that seemed to work, Casey. $250k for both of us ....

Terry
Then I will come in at $150K and under bid you guys... :twisted:
"I love the flute because it's the one instrument in the world where you can feel your own breath. I can feel my breath with my fingers. It's as if I'm speaking from my soul..."
Michael Flatley


Jon
Post Reply