Chiff and Fipple Forums

bradhurley wrote:

s1m0n wrote:Years ago, when I was barely capable with a whistle and had only recently acquired my first flute, I recall reading of -- someone. Probably a name I'd now recognise, although that might have been my first encounter with it. Anyway, one of the pantheon of irish fluters of the last pre-revival generation, and the passage that struck me went something like "like all aging flute players, eventually he lost his front teeth..."

In fact I believe the passage you're referring to was about Willie Clancy. Pat Mitchell wrote, in the introduction to the Dance Music of Willie Clancy: "Eventually he suffered the fate that befalls all flute-players--he lost his teeth."

Bingo. People on this list know everything!

s1m0n wrote:......
In the first two contexts, volume is all. A solo fife or (better) piccolo player might be able to play softly and still be heard over a set being danced by men in hob-nailed boots on a flagstone floor, but a solo concert flute is likely to have been striving for as much honk as he could muster.........

While I think that makee-learnee fluters have always had to learn how to practice quietly, I doubt that there was ever the kind of golden-age of gentle ITM fluting such as this thread posits.

We can think what we like. I know I like my thoughts.

I doubt that in the past there was ever a golden age
of hob-nailed booted Irish larrikins stomping about.
I mean according to Brendan Braethnach
(a person some like to mention, I believe,
without direct reference or quotation,
in certain topics as some sort of self sufficient authority)
good dancers "could dance on eggs without breaking them
and hold a pan of water on his head without spilling a drop".

This isn't quite the stuff of american barn dancing is it?

s1m0n wrote:Hmm. Most accounts of ITM in the wild stress the fact that this was dance music being played, usually, by a single musician in a house or kitchen party. Next in the tradition (the 30s) came ceili bands, and sessions became the dominant vector in about the 50s after fashion and the church squelched the dance halls.

In the first two contexts, volume is all. A solo fife or (better) piccolo player might be able to play softly and still be heard over a set being danced by men in hob-nailed boots on a flagstone floor, but a solo concert flute is likely to have been striving for as much honk as he could muster...

@ talasiga

It appears that s1m0n did qualify his statements by first referring to dance music, and, as it happens, dance music generally is loud.

However, I otherwise quite agree with you, that there is much more to music than just "loud".

;-)

talasiga wrote: I mean according to Brendan Braethnach
(a person some like to mention, I believe,
without direct reference or quotation,
in certain topics as some sort of self sufficient authority)
good dancers "could dance on eggs without breaking them
and hold a pan of water on his head without spilling a drop".

Does he tell you how the not-so-good dancers danced?

~~

Packie Manus Byrnes' memoir, if I'm remembering it correctly, talks of dancers' boots striking sparks on granite kitchen floors.

I think Talasiga fails to appreciate the difference between a step dancer dancing an exhibition piece on a half door and a bunch of strong farmers battering a set. He's not the only one either it seems.

Last summer I sat close to Michael Tubridy, another player I would class as very civilised, playing for 'the Priest and his Boots' and was surprised at the power he drew from his old Rudall.

Thanks, Peter for these tracks...they're great. Very modern sounding. In fact, they sound like the same settings I believe how Matt Molloy and Bothy Band played those tunes. I think Molloy, playing I believe a Rudall at the time, sounds so similar but plays with a bit more drive and more on the edge of the tone, probably pushing the volume. Yes, these tracks are somewhat "gentler" than Molloy later plays them, but only by degrees. Certainly not in the Grey Larsen realm.

You're hearing the difference between West Clare and Sligo/Roscommon, Clare has a different touch. Interesting enough I found some recordings from the sixties and seventies of another local player, Mickey Cleary, recently and several people made the comment how 'modern' they sounded. it only goes to show that there's continuity at the heart of it all.

I have piles of stuff like those tracks but unfortunately I cannot post all of it on-line. Am listening to Paddy Killoran at the moment, playing with a rake of different local flute-players during his 1958 visit here, which is interesting for a number of reasons.

We're working on a local archive however and eventually a lot of material will become available on-line.

thanks a million, peter, for posting all the great old recordings! it's a priceless resource.

Peter Laban wrote:I think Talasiga fails to appreciate the difference between a step dancer dancing an exhibition piece on a half door and a bunch of strong farmers battering a set. He's not the only one either it seems.

.......

Yes, I must admit I have never seen a bunch of strong farmers
battering a set. All the Irish born people who have demonstrated their dance steps
to me have stressed the importance of lightness and nimbleness.

Strength and heaviness are not automatic correlates.
In fact, the fitter and stronger you are, the greater the control
and nimbleness.

It is a fact that even in a circle of a dozen dancers a solo voice can be heard.
The real challenge to audibility of instrument is not the gentle patter of shoes
but of other instruments and insensitive instrumentation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLeCLRK8Ws8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvU7oBB ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxEdv_3C ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svZvAfGQ ... re=related

I guess they're all light on their feet, right enough. I wouldn't describe this dancing as gentle though, and I think in that third one there, a solo flute might be all right ... but you'd want a bit of power to play for that, IMO.

I'm afraid I didn't manage to find a vid of "a bunch of stong farmers battering a set". I've seen it though - a powerful sight.

I am sorry youtube is lost on me in a remoter part of Australia with my poor man's dial up internet.
I used to access it at a friend's place in a city but not now.
So I ask blindly (re. those videos):-
Do you think Grey Larsen's solo fluting would hold?
What about Mr Laban's piping, the Uileann pipes
being a gentle instrument I'd say .......

It is a fact that even in a circle of a dozen dancers a solo voice can be heard.
The real challenge to audibility of instrument is not the gentle patter of shoes
but of other instruments and insensitive instrumentation.

Again, a battering sets doesn't do a gentle patter of shoes.

Some old houses that used to host dances had a 'battering pot' dug in under the flagstones, to increase the sound of the battering even more.

Do you think Grey Larsen's solo fluting would hold?
What about Mr Laban's piping, the Uileann pipes
being a gentle instrument I'd say .......

Depends on the setting. Social dancing doesn't happen in isolation, noisy crowds are usually added to the mix.

Not sure I'd call a concert set of pipes 'gentle' (well, actually I am sure: it's the reason I don't have one), a flat set like my own would not be suitable to play for dancers in an un-amplified situation.

I have on occasion used the pipes to play for dancers, the odd few figures of a half set inside a pub I can manage but it is a less than ideal situation.

Peter Laban wrote:......
Not sure I'd call a concert set of pipes 'gentle' (well, actually I am sure: it's the reason I don't have one), a flat set like my own would not be suitable to play for dancers in an un-amplified situation.
....

The "past" was largely "un-amplified" wasn't it?

I have piles of stuff like those tracks but unfortunately I cannot post all of it on-line. Am listening to Paddy Killoran at the moment, playing with a rake of different local flute-players during his 1958 visit here, which is interesting for a number of reasons.

We're working on a local archive however and eventually a lot of material will become available on-line.

Hopefully, that'll occur. It's so good to get to know recordings from older times and not necessarily only the stars who recorded, but local people in general.

Cheers, Moritz

Paula Carroll ran a program on the project on Clare FM last week, still for download there, with archive material broadcast.

talasiga wrote:The "past" was largely "un-amplified" wasn't it?

pretty quiet actually, the "past", quite dead quiet

Hans

hans wrote:

talasiga wrote:The "past" was largely "un-amplified" wasn't it?

pretty quiet actually, the "past", quite dead quiet Hans

Ahh, but surely......Peter's battering pot must reverberate down the ages........