Chiff and Fipple Forums

Hello all, back again to the keys...
I'm playing a Solen Leseouf D keyless flute from beginning this year and I'm satisfied. Playing only ITM on it, the only key which I miss is the C natural. Thinking in prospective to buy a keyed flute sooner or later, I'm wondering why I should have a flute with 6 keys
I mean, I have really few experience in this world, but in all the tunes I've played, the only key that would have made my sound better is the C natural.
When I asked to Solen the same question, she told that many customers request her a 3-keyed flute, with C natural, F natural and G sharp. This choice would also make more affordable buying a keyed flute...a good point in this period
Please light me up.
Thanks!

I too play Irish traditional music on the flute and have over the years acquired a small collection of both keyed and keyless flutes. I play mostly a Rudall, Carte & Co. eight-key flute because of the sound, response, and Victorian mojo. The only keys though that I use/need are the F natural and the G sharp. Otherwise a Wilkes keyless flute is sufficient. A Leseouf three-key flute would be fine for Irish traditional music.

Hi Marish

(I suspect we have somehow already met on the Heatons' Virtual Guided Sessions). I am relatively new to flute and ITM (been playing for 1.5 years), but I'll speak from my own experience - and I'm a strong advocate of keys.

You can definitely have lots of fun with a keyless flute in the context of ITM. In this respect, the keys would probably only add the pleasure to play a minority of tunes in less popular keys (mainly D minor and G minor. Awesome tunes, however: have a look here https://thesession.org/discussions/45487, if curious), besides offering you a better C natural (though cross-fingering remains often the best option in fast tunes) and some further possibility for ornamentation (e.g., you can get a C nat cut or roll by fingering a B cut or roll with the C nat key pressed) and chromatic variation.

But it is in the flute playing itself that I got the greatest benefits from the keys. Besides bringing the instrument to its full potentialities, the keys (certainly the Bb one) will force you to find the "correct" hold and as a result the stability in holding the flute (even a keyless one) will result greatly improved - at least, this is what has happened to me. An eight-keyed flute (with additional low C# and C keys) will allow you to further improve your embouchure and breath control, but this is probably another story (see https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewt ... 2&t=112033, if interested).

Curiously, the C nat key is the one that I use the less. If I had to go for a less-than-six-keyed flute (but I strongly suggest six or eight, for full potentialities), I would opt for Bb, long F nat, G# and Eb.

Hope this helps
Sergio

No, keys are not necessary. There are many great flute players that use keyless flutes, or don't use the keys they have on the flutes. A couple play the flutes they have backwards, ie they might have a right-handed flute and play it left-handed - in fact there's a video of Patsy Hanley doing this where he does use one of the keys. So maybe a counter-example

That said, playing flute isn't necessary - you can play tinwhistle or fiddle or pipes (and conversely). Playing traditional Irish music isn't necessary either. So necessary is maybe the wrong word. Are the keys useful? Absolutely. Are there many traditional tunes in the repertoire that benefit greatly from having keys? Yes, absolutely. You can move them to other keys to play them on a keyless flute, or learn to half-hole at speed, but keys are a very useful thing to have.

I use all 8 keys that I have on my D and B flutes (I'd love a low B key.... the grass is always greener etc). I use them all for traditional Irish music.

I have no keyed flute (ehm, I have a boehm flute but don't play it anymore) but when not playing Irish tunes, the Eb-key would probably be most useful because that note is on most conical flutes almost impossible to half-hole. And I think Matt Molloy uses it for instance on "The moving cloud", right?
The two conical flutes I have are so small-holed (Dixon and David Angus flutes) that a lot of the cross-fingerings of the baroque flute even work on them, which makes keys even less necessary.

Interestingly, I think the Eb key is the one I use the least.

NicoMoreno wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:52 am Interestingly, I think the Eb key is the one I use the least.

Probably because it is much less needed for Irish music than, let's say, some classical stuff.
I think I'd be perfectly happy with a "baroque Irish" flute if that was at all possible. So just an Eb-key and cross-fingering for all the rest. Unfortunately that doesn't work on larger holed flutes. I think, it might almost work however on some small holed flutes, like the 3-piece Dixon I have. That flute could be made fully chromatic with maybe one or two keys.

If I had a one-key flute I would specify the Eb key because that note is impossible to half-hole, and it shows up as an accidental often enough. Also, the E note is always veiled without Eb, which you can see by trying to play the harmonics of E. I notice that so many (most?) well-known Irish flute players turn the low foot away and just rest their fingers on the joint.

The next keys I would consider essential include:

G# because only then can you play in the key of A, and fiddlers like that. With the Eb (i.e. D#) key, the simple-system flute is pretty easy to play in the key of E, although that is not common in ITM.

F and Bb because I like the keys of F, D-minor, G-minor. (Alternatively you could buy a C flute Long F for me because I can't figure out how to quickly go from E to short F-natural, and the only difficulty with long F is building up the agility of the pathetic little left pinky. I agree that using the Bb key encourages you to learn a more ergonomic hold.

So for me, the two non-essential keys are C-natural and Short-F. I do need to use the short-F in some music in the key of Eb. I never use the C-natural key for playing C-natural, because I like the cross-finger: OXO XXX. However on one flute of mine, the middle C# is flat unless I vent it with the C-natural key.

Frankly though, a six key flute is much more useful in the long-term and in case you need to sell on. If you want a 4 key flute, they do show up on the used market with some frequency.

Thanks to all for your exahustive replies!

Yes Sergio, I'm the "Mara from Italy" that Shannon sometimes welcomes
I felt in love with the Heatons one year and a half ago, taken 5 lessons with her and from then, I've never left them ❤ But that's another story.

Never considered the balance issue...very very good point! Since I've never played a keyed flute, I've never had the opportunity to appreciate the utility of the keys, apart for playing this or that note.

I'll start to have a look to the models and offers. I'm quite oriented to a Morvan or a Lejeune. No hurry...
Thanks again

To illustrate how different we all are, I play an 8-key flute and one of the keys I very seldom touch is the C natural. I use it a few times when it makes sense in a phrase, but mostly I cross-finger the Cnat because it's usually just as fast.

I also prefer the slightly sharper pitch of the cross-fingered C, sometimes known as a "Piper's C" or "C Supernatural." It clashes less than the Cnat key in sessions where there is a piper or whistler playing that note a hair sharp, and the fiddlers instinctively follow along.

As for keys, it comes down to your repertoire. That's the bottom line for me, and why I wanted a keyed flute. I can play every tune in local sessions without keys, but there are some tunes I play only at home in keys/modes that require them to work at all. For example, "The J.B. Reel" in F# dorian or the setting of "Galway Bay" in G dorian. Sometimes I'll transpose a tune to a different key to make it easier on flute, but tunes like these have a very wide range, and transposing puts the top note higher than is comfortable, or sounds right to my ear.

So it's all about repertoire. I bought a keyed flute because it was driving me nuts not to be able to play some favorite tunes on the keyless flute I started on. I guess I was primed for that by playing mandolin before flute, where I picked up some tunes that flute players don't immediately go for.

Generally people have said that keys aren't necessary but nice to have. I think keys make the flute into a more agile and powerful instrument. Also I play a good deal of different sorts of music, though lots of ITM. Another thing is that musical interests can evolve and there's something to be said for a flute that can follow your evolving interests.

As folks are saying above, you can get by without keys for sure in ITM, but if you play anything different (e.g., I play a lot of Breton and other times that absolutely need keys) they can be essential. Full disclosure, I have two flutes, both 8 keyed (David Copley delrin and a Firth, Pond & Co.). The primary keys I use are Eb, G#, Fnat and the low C/C#. I really don't use the higher C key unless I'm up to the third octave (counting the low C as the first octave).

Eric

I know very very good players who've played keyless flutes for years, and others that play with keys. My first keyed flute had 5 keys with no long Fnat. I perhaps because of that I find the short Fnat is the one I gravitate to. I seldom use Bb but like to have it when someone starts up Music for a Found Harmonium or Catharsis. I enjoy having the low Cs but we don't really "need" them, Flute players have been jumping the octave on those low notes forever and it sounds just fine.

Nope. The huge majority of tunes that you'll encounter in ITM sessions (I'm guessing its above 95%) will be in (or played /transposed) to D/G/A or relative minors. The split will be approx 40/45/5 and a good bunch the rest will be C/Am which shouldn't be that difficult either. Which would suggest that the order of importance of adding keys should be G# (because tricky), F-nat (long), C-nat, Bb, Eb, F-nat (short). C-nat would be the obvious priority except it is so effectively and easily cross-fingered with OXXOOO.

Despite that, if I was getting a flute with one, and only one, key being added - I'd opt for Eb because that note is simply *impossible* to half hole with any volume/tone. The Baroque guys knew what they were at when they added Eb as the first and only key.

Row Labels march hornpipe jig polka reel slide slip jig Grand Total
A 10.05% 5.37% 7.69% 8.59% 9.63% 5.75% 3.93% 8.23%
Bb 0.48% 3.27% 0.99% 0.44% 1.59% 0.00% 1.57% 1.42%
C 3.35% 4.67% 7.32% 6.22% 7.94% 3.54% 6.28% 7.03%
D 45.45% 36.87% 38.41% 39.11% 39.51% 46.90% 37.43% 39.13%
E 0.48% 0.23% 0.48% 0.00% 0.88% 0.00% 0.00% 0.57%
Eb 0.00% 0.47% 0.07% 0.15% 0.23% 0.00% 0.00% 0.18%
F 1.44% 3.97% 3.31% 2.37% 4.32% 0.88% 3.14% 3.64%
G 38.76% 45.16% 41.72% 43.11% 35.89% 42.92% 47.64% 39.81%
Grand Total 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00% 100.00%

Sedi wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:33 am

NicoMoreno wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:52 am Interestingly, I think the Eb key is the one I use the least.

Probably because it is much less needed for Irish music than, let's say, some classical stuff.
I think I'd be perfectly happy with a "baroque Irish" flute if that was at all possible. So just an Eb-key and cross-fingering for all the rest. Unfortunately that doesn't work on larger holed flutes. I think, it might almost work however on some small holed flutes, like the 3-piece Dixon I have. That flute could be made fully chromatic with maybe one or two keys.

I have a Peter Noy flute like that. It's a smallish-holed Irish flute that cross-fingers (the F#/Fnat is actually better than most of my baroque flutes) so well that I had him make a foot joint with the Eflat key.