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Hey folks, just got into the shop today a yamaha 211 for service, now it struck me as odd because it doesnt have a serial number.

Now all the yamahas Ive ever repaired always had serial numbers, does anyone have a yamaha flute that doesnt have a serial number.

The overall construction of the flute is very tidy, offset G, split E etc. So its not a junker,

It has the yamaha logo on the body but not on the headjoint.

It doesnt have the yamaha alignment marks on the lower joint

It doesnt have the plastic square insert with adjustable screws it just has adjustable screws

It also has EVA USA pads fitted to it and not yamaha marked pads, owner purchased it new, so this surprised me as well, but still quite possible.

It could be genuine but I thought I would put the question out there as I had not come across it before, and I repair instruments for a living

Thanks

Simso wrote:Hey folks, just got into the shop today a yamaha 211 for service, now it struck me as odd because it doesnt have a serial number.

Now all the yamahas Ive ever repaired always had serial numbers, does anyone have a yamaha flute that doesnt have a serial number.

The overall construction of the flute is very tidy, offset G, split E etc. So its not a junker,

It has the yamaha logo on the body but not on the headjoint.

It doesnt have the yamaha alignment marks on the lower joint

It doesnt have the plastic square insert with adjustable screws it just has adjustable screws

It also has EVA USA pads fitted to it and not yamaha marked pads, owner purchased it new, so this surprised me as well, but still quite possible.

It could be genuine but I thought I would put the question out there as I had not come across it before, and I repair instruments for a living

Thanks

Interesting...

It's too easy to dismiss it as an outright fake, or knockoff. Sure, there are many things which are subject to being copied, such as valuable works of art, money, and so on. However, and with all due respect to Yamaha, what you're describing is a relatively low-end, low-cost flute. Now, apparently it's true that cheap flute knockoffs have been made, in particular by a Mr. P. K. Stan (wink), but those keyless, ITM copy flutes could be turned out with the use of relatively simple machinery and tools. Yet, even a crude imitation of a Boehm type flute would necessarily involve the use of some expensive equipment and manufacturing processes, and, moreover, because the Boehm flute market is very competitive, especially at lower-end flutes, with very small profit margins on each flute, it simply doesn't make any sense that anybody could hope to compete with (the several) big manufacturers, in making knockoff copies.

My first thought is that perhaps Yamaha could simply have made a (surprisingly) rare error, in releasing such a flute, and my second thought is that perhaps it could be the work of a current, or former, Yamaha employee who could somehow happen, or have happened, to have access to the equipment, and perhaps the materials, in addition to having the skills, required to make it. Which asks, could there be more of such a thing?

Of course, perhaps what you have could simply be a brand new model by Yamaha, now made to a new specification, which, frankly, seems unlikely.

Perhaps Yamaha could appreciate being notified as to your discovery. That is, perhaps imitation could be a form of flattery, but if I were making something of value, and if it were being copied, then I, for one, would then like to know about it. Also, as a matter of consumer interest, perhaps Yamaha could not be willing to provide any warranty, or other, service, to a fake.

There are a bunch of them on eBay, from China. There has been some discussion on the Boehm flute lists.

Kevin Krell

Counterfeits can originate in the same factories or be made from many of the same parts/designs as products with serial numbers. This is a big problem in China. Wonder what the owner did for a warranty registration-he or she would have needed a serial number for that. Not that I've ever personally sent in one of those cards.....

kkrell wrote:There are a bunch of them on eBay, from China. There has been some discussion on the Boehm flute lists.

Kevin Krell

Ah yes, China... Even W.S.Haynes flutes are currently being made in China!

The interesting thing here is that the "Yamaha" flute of discussion seems to be of relatively high quality, for such a model, and, with the exception of certain details, seems to incorporate such model accuracy as to impress an expert as to a similarity to genuine Yamaha flutes.

That said, it would be interesting to have some images of the apparent fake, for all to see, please, if only to compare its details to any known Chinese (or other) flute manufacturer, to possibly identify its source. Any possibility of taking a few pictures, and uploading them?

It's one thing to copy something, but it's another thing to try to pass that copy off as a genuine article, when in fact it isn't, and that's why, seeing as how this curious flute is marked as a "Yamaha", perhaps Yamaha could be interested in being aware of such a copy. It may not earn anybody a free flute, but somehow sending a note to Yamaha seems like the right thing to do.

Many "counterfeits" are made with genuine parts but travel through questionable distribution channels. They might not have 100% of the requisite factory content but certainly enough to be convincing. Every counterfeiting seminar I've attended has emphasized the fact that legitimate factories are often the source of unauthorized products. For instance, one automobile battery manufacturer found parts that were shipped from an unauthorized shift. They were finished with light-weight plate assemblies at a second location. With flutes, it might be a case of enough parts diverted over time to make entire instruments or even authorized instruments that weren't intended for US distribution.

springrobin wrote:...With flutes, it might be a case of enough parts diverted over time to make entire instruments or even authorized instruments that weren't intended for US distribution.

Not that I'm suggesting that the C&F Flute Forum should, or even could, be the world's policeman in regard to counterfeit flutes, please, but perhaps some published images of the apparent fake could help to identify its source.

Hello, Simso?

Maybe one like this, sold for approx. $3.98 plus shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Woodwind-Musica ... dZViewItem

or this new listing, currently at $0.99 . Of course, shipping is about $180, so who knows - they might just be trying to get around eBay Final Value Fees.:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Woodwind-Musica ... dZViewItem

Okay I uploaded some pics on our website, Ive enclosed a link for people to look at it, Ive also taken the photos along side a genuine 221.

Its a good point about same factory but unscrupolous workers, this would explain the lack of a serial number. The biggest question is the lack of yammy pads fitted, but a brand name EVA uSA was used, Ive never seen or heard of this brand before.



http://www.ultrainspections.com/yammy.html

I'm almost certain that I've seen EVA pads before, for saxophones. and if my memory serves, definitely Chinese.

One of the difficulties that foreign firms face in China is that to open a factory they must have a Chinese partner and are not allowed to own the actual bulding or the tools; these are ultimatley owned by the goverment, via third parties naturally.

Therefore what you get are often not strictly fakes but rather unauthorised production models, hence no serial numbers, however items which are not manufactured on site, eg pads, would have to be sourced elsewhere; one way for the brand owner to try and control production.

Simso wrote:Okay I uploaded some pics on our website, Ive enclosed a link for people to look at it, Ive also taken the photos along side a genuine 221.

Its a good point about same factory but unscrupolous workers, this would explain the lack of a serial number. The biggest question is the lack of yammy pads fitted, but a brand name EVA uSA was used, Ive never seen or heard of this brand before.



http://www.ultrainspections.com/yammy.html

I'm not sure that EVA is a brand name, but rather a product description "ethylene-vinyl acetate", which in this instance would be a type of foam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene-vinyl_acetate

Simso wrote:Okay I uploaded some pics on our website, Ive enclosed a link for people to look at it, Ive also taken the photos along side a genuine 221.
Its a good point about same factory but unscrupolous workers, this would explain the lack of a serial number.
http://www.ultrainspections.com/yammy.html

The points you listed along with the photos all point to a very obvious counterfeit that didn't originate from a Yamaha factory, i.e. substandard or missing logos, missing Teflon blocks, lack of serial number. lighter weight. The resulting poor quality sound is what damages Yamaha most of all, though.