Chiff and Fipple Forums

Hey folks. I just got my brand new keyless blackwood flute this past Monday and have been following all instructions re: oiling, slowly breaking in, etc. Unfortunately as of just over 24 hours ago, the headjoint and body have been stuck together and I can't get them apart. (I'm afraid to pull too hard.) I've contacted the maker for instructions and haven't heard back yet, so I just thought I'd see if y'all have any suggestions. (How much pressure can I put on the parts to get them apart? etc. etc.) I'm rather worried, as it feels like I've hurt my brand new flute! (Not to mention that I don't want to play it while it's stuck, which is also killing me!) Any help/thoughts would be most welcome while I wait for the Official Word on What To Do.

Thanks.

lws

No flute expert I ... But first, you want to twist and rotate, not pull. Second, sometimes it's hard to get a good grip. Try wearing a pair of ordinary latex kitchen gloves. Third, sometimes it takes a while for the thread or cork of a new flute to compress a bit. Let the instrument air dry for 24 hours, and try again.

MTGuru wrote:No flute expert I ... But first, you want to twist and rotate, not pull. Second, sometimes it's hard to get a good grip. Try wearing a pair of ordinary latex kitchen gloves. Third, sometimes it takes a while for the thread or cork of a new flute to compress a bit. Let the instrument air dry for 24 hours, and try again.

Well... thats rather sage advice "flute expert" or not.

I'll add its probably better to wait it out some before putting any muscle to it.

Barrel and the first tenon are probably getting the bulk of the moisture and are often enough an area where you'll find the most compression to the wall vs. thickness of construction.


What kind of flute it is it?

If you have thread, remember you can remove some of it after you get it free. Keep it well greased.

If its cork, make sure you keep it very greased (I don't advise any "sanding" of the cork unless the maker does it... as MTGURU says it will compress some) and don't forget to get a little grease on the ends of the tenon.

Its wood right?

That is where trees naturally take up moisture.

It will swell a tiny bit.


Just chill.

It will be fine.

I second the motion, let it dry out some and it will free it's self. Does it have cork tenons, or thread? If it has cork, you may need t oreturn it to have it sanded a little more, to improve the fit. Some times the blackwood will wick moisture from the end grain of the tenon and keep swelling up. I then seal the end grain with some thin CA glue to prevent this.
Good luck!
Jon

Thanks for the thoughts everybody. It's an Olwell pratten keyless blackwood, and it's now been nearly 2 days since it first got stuck, with no sign of loosening on its own. Sigh. I did put a bunch of cork grease on the cork, as well, before assembling it, but none on the end of the tenon. I live in Dublin and I'm worried that the change in humidity from VA to here has contributed to the problem (even though it's been an unusually dry winter here this year), but unfortunately it also makes it difficult for me to return it to the maker for help! I'll try the latex gloves tomorrow when my lab scientist husband can pick some up for me.

I just received an Olwell keyless blackwood combo Pratten/Nicholson 3 weeks ago. I live in Canada and was worried about expansion/contraction because the flute(s) was shipped to me when it was extremely cold.

The first few times I played it was much more difficult to remove the headjoint but as MTGuru suggested the twist & rotate method works well. Pulling gave me the impression that it was stuck but I dried my hands and used the twist & rotate. I also have been using the cork grease.

You can also give Patrick a call he's great to speak with.

Best of luck.

Well, after writing a different reply, you posted your whereabouts as Dublin-and looking up your weather conditions, it seems it's cold there too, so you are heating your indoor living quarters where the flute lives, even if it is 70% humidity outside-it might be too dry inside for the flute, and you may even have to humidify it to get it unstuck. But it's hard to tell from afar what your conditions are, and how you have been keeping it.

How have you been storing the flute after playing? Have you been taking it apart (when you could) and swabbing it out too? How long were you playing the flute last when it got stuck? Did the joints feel tight when you assembled the flute?

Good luck,
Barry

greenspiderweb wrote:Well, after writing a different reply, you posted your whereabouts as Dublin-and looking up your weather conditions, it seems it's cold there too, so you are heating your indoor living quarters where the flute lives, even if it is 70% humidity outside-it might be too dry inside for the flute, and you may even have to humidify it to get it unstuck.

I'd have come to the opposite conclusion, Barry, but I'd admit it's not straightforward. I think we'd all agree that when wood gets wet, it swells. In the flute context, when the top of the LH section gets wet, it will swell. When the inside of the barrel gets wet, it will swell too, but any attempt at swelling will be constrained by the silver ring. So it will swell inwards, reducing the inside diameter of the socket. The combination of swellings thus quickly close the available gap, increasing the likelihood of it sticking.

So, the flute needs to dry more, not be humidified more, to make it easier to pull apart. Is everyone happy with that analysis, or have I overlooked an important point?

Problem of course is that there's not much airflow up inside the jammed socket, so the moisture has to migrate out through the wood, which can take some time. You can help by keeping it in a warm, dry, airy place. I'd be tempted to say convection oven turned down to minimum with the door open a bit to keep the temperature below say 40C (~100F). But check that with the maker first, especially if the barrel is metal lined!

If a reasonable amount of brute strength, applied through washing-up gloves (arguably the only good reason for ever donning washing-up gloves!) can't shift it, it would seem we are not looking at wood-to-cork contact, but wood-to-wood contact. Once you get it apart, lws, inspect the wooden parts of the tenon. Shiny patches are tell-tale signs of wood-to-wood contact. These may need to be relieved to avoid the problem in future. You can also detect wood-to-wood contact by feel. Grease up the cork and twist the pieces together. They should rotate firmly but smoothly. If you detect a snatching action, that's wood-to-wood. Don't play it until that's sorted. If the maker is happy, a local flute or pipe maker could spin off the offending wood in a few seconds. Make sure to oil the freshly exposed wood, or dope it with superglue, and grease the whole tenon and socket before resuming playing. (The maker will advise.) Test the fit every 30mins or so to make sure it isn't going to grab up again.

Best of luck!

Terry

I bow to your experience and knowlege, of course, Terry...but I wasn't concluding anything, merely guessing what conditions could produce this effect and suggesting it might not be as simple as it seems. After all, not knowing a lot about how the flute was played or kept, and how long and hard it was played only makes it harder to say why it was stuck in the first place.

So, Terry, if the exterior of the flute has been kept out in the air in a dry heated environment, wouldn't that have a shrinking effect to the wood, and possibly cause a tight joint too, or is that not how the wood reacts? Especially since the flute is new and in the break in stage, supposedly not being played extensively?

Or is it just more of a sure thing that it is just the tenons swelling-and the case most all the time with this problem? I do understand what you are saying about the two swellings on the barrel and tenon-and thanks for explaining that-but that I imagine is the most likely possiblity if it got wet enough to cause the swelling in the first place.

Thanks, Barry

Thanks Terry, Barry, Michael et al. I tried the rubber gloves method this morning, but no luck. I had only had the flute three days or so when it got stuck. It had definitely been snug previously, but had come apart after playing. I had been trying to follow Patrick's instructions and only play for an hour or less per day for the first week. I oiled the flute the day I got it and had been using cork grease on the tenons, but I don't have a humidity monitor or anything like that for my apartment yet. I had probably been playing for only about 30-40 mins the day it got stuck, but I think that part of the problem might have been that I got a phone call and left the flute sitting for 15 mins or so before I tried to disassemble it? I've been noticing that there's lots of advice on the board not to leave flutes sitting assembled after playing, and I'm sure mine is more sensitive than normal after the transatlantic trip. (Of course now it's been sitting partially assembled for 2+ days!) Hopefully I can get in touch with Patrick about this soon.

Thanks again,

lws

Just to ask the obvious ... Did you hand the gloves to the strongest person in your household, neighborhood, etc., and have them try? Honestly, I'm often able to dislodge things when others can't, thanks to a strong grip.

In fact, send me a ticket and I'll be right there.

lws wrote:I've been noticing that there's lots of advice on the board not to leave flutes sitting assembled after playing, and I'm sure mine is more sensitive than normal after the transatlantic trip.

I don't like to have them sit at all, they should stand.
If it is on it's side the moisture will tend to gather at the bottom, what makes the swelling a bit uneven.

I assume that it doesn't have a tuning slide that would allow you to pull the head and get better air into the stuck joint.

lws wrote:Thanks Terry, Barry, Michael et al. I tried the rubber gloves method this morning, but no luck. I had only had the flute three days or so when it got stuck. It had definitely been snug previously, but had come apart after playing. I had been trying to follow Patrick's instructions and only play for an hour or less per day for the first week. I oiled the flute the day I got it and had been using cork grease on the tenons, but I don't have a humidity monitor or anything like that for my apartment yet. I had probably been playing for only about 30-40 mins the day it got stuck, but I think that part of the problem might have been that I got a phone call and left the flute sitting for 15 mins or so before I tried to disassemble it? I've been noticing that there's lots of advice on the board not to leave flutes sitting assembled after playing, and I'm sure mine is more sensitive than normal after the transatlantic trip. (Of course now it's been sitting partially assembled for 2+ days!) Hopefully I can get in touch with Patrick about this soon.

Thanks again,

lws

Well, at least now we have some details on the conditions present before it got stuck, and it seems it was played long enough to get some good amount of moisture condensed in it to cause the swelling Terry had mentioned being most probable.

Hope it gets resolved soon for you lws! It must be very hard to just sit and watch a flute!

Barry

No one so far has mentioned rigid-brand pipe wrenches that are made especially for this sort of situation where you need a little extra leverage. I figure that if it will work on a galvanized steel pipe it ought to also work on an Olwell blackwood flute.

Don't do this; I'm only kidding.

I can't imagine the flute never coming apart. It might take some patience but I find it improbable that it is fused forever. One other thing that might help. I also play the shakuhachi flute. To take them apart at the joint you cup your hand around the joint and clap the closed hand into your other open hand rather smartly. Not hard but more of a slap. Rotate a few times and see if it starts to loosen, then twist.
It's worth a try.
Kurt