Chiff and Fipple Forums

I've noted how cocus is highlighted in notices of new and used flutes for sale. Is cocus the epitome of woods for simple system flutes, or is it desirable as a way to reconnect with what was used back in the day? Or is it simply another option, along with blackwood, mopane, and other woods? I know a few folks who have an allergic reaction to playing cocus instruments, but are there other pros and cons to its use?

Thanks and best wishes.

Steve

Here's one flutemaker's opinion:
http://www.martindoyleflutes.com/woods.html

And a long previous discussion on C&F comparing Blackwood and Cocus.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77849


Kevin Krell

Nowdays cocuswood is rare and expensive. If somebody asked a maker to make a flute made of this wood, it means he thought the craftsmanship worthy of its extra price. So, along with being a wood with excellent tone qualities, it's also (or should be) a warranty of quality of the flute.

Cocus is a slow growing tree from the West Indies, and is also called Jamaican Ebony. This was the wood du jour for wind instruments such as flutes and bagpipes in the second half of the 19th century into the 20th century until overharvesting it for this purpose and others pretty much rendered it commercially extinct. Trees too small to harvest back then are presumably what is being cut now and wood suppliers now have some in stock, but never very much of it. What is available is still too wet to use right off the shelf and requires additional months or years to be stable. It is still quite rare, and possibly deserving of some protection - or perhaps its harvesting is contributing to deforestation in some places. Given its rarity the raw material sometimes commands a high price.

I won't use it due to the likelihood that I would quickly grow sensitive to it. The irritants are similar to those found in poison oak and ivy, which I've had bad reactions to in the past. I did purchase a log of it once which rendered 5 flutes. Even though the wood measured at 8% humidity when I used it, almost every flute cracked in the head joint and sometimes elsewhere. It may be that this particular log was timberbound and full of stresses - but the failure rate that I experienced was way too high to consider using it ever again, especially given its high cost.

Acoustically I have never found it to be superior to other woods I have used, including blackwood, mopane and boxwood. Mopane has gone through a similar bit of overharvesting for such uses as parquet flooring and knickknackery and is now hard to get. Boxwood is available from suppliers in Turkey and elsewhere. Blackwood is more commonly available and my supplier has lots of it in stock. Some of this is wood rejected by the clarinet industry. They prefer perfect pieces and reject much with such "flaws" as sapwood, occasional worm holes, etc. I find that cutting around these can render some perfectly suitable flute wood. Blackwood is the current wood du jour for Irish flutes, modern clarinets, oboes and bagpipes, and is harvested and cultivated sustainably.

I think Cocus's current popularity is simply a reflection of its past popularity. But there are too many forces aligned against it ever gaining any prominence again.

Casey

Thanks for the input.

KKrell, somehow I missed that thread in my search. It would have answered some of my questions.

Appreciate any further comments on whether cocus is still held in high esteem because of its inherent properties or because of its rarity.

Best wishes.

Steve

Bottom line: I think its popular simply because many old flutes were made from it. Nice ones like Rudall as well as so many old German flutes that still play like crap. And now its available - though for a short while I predict.

Similar to Brazilian Rosewood for guitars. Except few use makers that anymore due to CITES controls, etc. And don;t try taking one with Brazilian Rosewood across any international border!

Casey

"New hydroxyisoflavans as contact sensitizers in cocus wood Brya ebenus DC (Fabaceae)

B. M. Hausen1,*, G. Bruhn2, W. A. Koenig2
Article first published online: 11 APR 2006

ABSTRACT: A 15-year-old girl developed perioral dermatitis and swelling of the lips, having played a flute made of cocus wood for 2 years. Patch tests with wood shavings, as well as with subsequently isolated constituents named focus 1 and focus II. were Strongly positive.

Contact allergens were identified as isoflavan derivatives, While Cocus 1 was shown to be 7,8-dihydroxy-2,4,5trmethoxyisoflava, the structure of focus II could not be elucidated exactly. It could have been either 7,8,3′-trihydroxy 2,4 dimethoxyisoflavan or 7,8,2-trihydroxy-3′,4-dime-thoxyoflavan The exact position of the hydroxy and methoxy group in C-2 and C-3 can be determined only by complete synthesis. Of both compounds or by isolation of greater amounts of focus II for further oxidation experiments. Due t0 the stronger patch lest reaction and the higher yield cocus I in the wood, this hydroxyisoflavan must be recognized as the main contact allergen."

from http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

Yummmm!!!! What is it about Hydroxyisoflavans?

Casey Burns wrote:Fabaceae

FWIW, one of just four eight-letter words I know you can make from the musical alphabet (excluding German 'H' etc.)!

Casey Burns wrote:Fabaceae

Peter Duggan wrote:FWIW, one of just four eight-letter words I know you can make from the musical alphabet (excluding German 'H' etc.)!

Oh, come on. Don't leave us hanging....

Best wishes.

Steve

Cabbaged, debagged, Fabaceae and Fagaceae.

Contact Dermatitis from cocus. Fascinating. . .but not news. It has been speculated that many tropical plants, not just trees, employ novel chemicals as methods to compete with other plant competitors as well as insect attacks. It's a jungle out there, gentlemen. . . . .


Bob

I have found Cocuswood to be far superior to the other tone woods. Never had any cracking issues with properly cured Cocus. Unfortunately it is very rare, or I think it would still be the wood of choice for making flutes.
The thing to keep in mind, the antique flutes from Britian, were mostly made from a wood that came from India, Kokra wood not the Cocuswood from the West Indies. I have repaired a lot of anique flutes, very few of them were real Cocuswood. I have never seen a German flute made from Cocuswood, mostly they were made from Madagascar ebony and some, like my original Meyers flute was made from Madagascar rosewood. Many of the American flutes were made from the real Cocuswood, as it was easier to get in Cuba, this was not the case with England, after the civil war. It was interesting to note, that the recent Rudall Carte 8 key I restored was made from real Cocuswood, and this was made 1910, so I guess they did get some later in the game...
Haven't had any allergic reaction to the wood, unlike cocobolo, that kills me...

In my experience Cocus has a unique, rich tone which is unmatched by other woods. Probably wouldn't sound a whole lot different from to a listener but there is something about it. I think Martin Doyle's website has it about right.

Jon C. wrote:I have found Cocuswood to be far superior to the other tone woods. Never had any cracking issues with properly cured Cocus. Unfortunately it is very rare, or I think it would still be the wood of choice for making flutes.
The thing to keep in mind, the antique flutes from Britian, were mostly made from a wood that came from India, Kokra wood not the Cocuswood from the West Indies. I have repaired a lot of anique flutes, very few of them were real Cocuswood. I have never seen a German flute made from Cocuswood, mostly they were made from Madagascar ebony and some, like my original Meyers flute was made from Madagascar rosewood. Many of the American flutes were made from the real Cocuswood, as it was easier to get in Cuba, this was not the case with England, after the civil war. It was interesting to note, that the recent Rudall Carte 8 key I restored was made from real Cocuswood, and this was made 1910, so I guess they did get some later in the game...
Haven't had any allergic reaction to the wood, unlike cocobolo, that kills me...

There was a huge trade between the West Indies and Europe from at least as far back as the mid-seventeenth century. One of the principal exports from the West Indies in the earliest days of this trading, and a wood which continued to be sent for the next hundred years or so, in fairly large quantities, was cocus wood. My understanding was that just about all of the better quality (and some others, too) English flutes from the 18c and 19c which look like cocus wood (ie not box), are actually cocus wood.

I'm interested in your comments, Jon. What makes you think that "very few" antique flutes were made from cocus wood? And would you think that applies to Rudalls as well? Of the Rudalls that I've seen, I'd be very confident that they are genuine cocus. Not from my own opinion on the matter, I hasten to add, but from a reasonably reliable source.

benhall.1 wrote:

Jon C. wrote:I have found Cocuswood to be far superior to the other tone woods. Never had any cracking issues with properly cured Cocus. Unfortunately it is very rare, or I think it would still be the wood of choice for making flutes.
The thing to keep in mind, the antique flutes from Britian, were mostly made from a wood that came from India, Kokra wood not the Cocuswood from the West Indies. I have repaired a lot of anique flutes, very few of them were real Cocuswood. I have never seen a German flute made from Cocuswood, mostly they were made from Madagascar ebony and some, like my original Meyers flute was made from Madagascar rosewood. Many of the American flutes were made from the real Cocuswood, as it was easier to get in Cuba, this was not the case with England, after the civil war. It was interesting to note, that the recent Rudall Carte 8 key I restored was made from real Cocuswood, and this was made 1910, so I guess they did get some later in the game...
Haven't had any allergic reaction to the wood, unlike cocobolo, that kills me...

There was a huge trade between the West Indies and Europe from at least as far back as the mid-seventeenth century. One of the principal exports from the West Indies in the earliest days of this trading, and a wood which continued to be sent for the next hundred years or so, in fairly large quantities, was cocus wood. My understanding was that just about all of the better quality (and some others, too) English flutes from the 18c and 19c which look like cocus wood (ie not box), are actually cocus wood.

I'm interested in your comments, Jon. What makes you think that "very few" antique flutes were made from cocus wood? And would you think that applies to Rudalls as well? Of the Rudalls that I've seen, I'd be very confident that they are genuine cocus. Not from my own opinion on the matter, I hasten to add, but from a reasonably reliable source.

Well there is some confusion as to which wood is cocuswood. Today we say wood from Jamaica and Cuba (Brya ebenus) is Cocuswood, but some of the old definitions defined it as Kok-ra wood from India, especially in the second half of the 19 century, Either the wood was running out, or India became more popular to exploit. I think there were a few woods that were named Coco wood (brown wood). This is just my observation from working on several antique flutes, I would have to say of all the antique flutes only a few were actually Brya ebenus. Certainly the later Rudall Rose and Carte flutes, and RC flutes were not Cocuswood, some were, but not all. Especially the English flutes made the second half of the 18th century. Cocuswood has a unique quality to it, when you work it, so you can recognize the real stuff from the alternative woods. Another indicator, when Cocuswood is glued it usually stays glued, brown ebony, Kokra, Madagascar ebony, and these other alternative ebony woods move more when subject to humidity changes. There is two types of Brya ebenus that I have used, a red variety and greenish variety, but the wood is still more stable.
Here is an example of a flute made from Brya ebenus, this is a very late model RC (1910)


Here is some Cocuswood turning squares:


Here is an example of a American made flute by Klemm, made from Cocuswood:



Here is an example of non cocuswood, this is my lovely Fentum. Not saying that the wood is bad it is just a different variety...

The wood tends to turn almost black.

Another example, My Rudall Rose and Carte:


Of course the true test would be to have the wood lab tested to verify the variety. I imagine the maker saw all the different woods coming in from the importer as cocuswood, sometimes it was mixed on the flute, using the non cocuswood on the head joint, as the grain was more uniform.
Anyway, I don't think it takes away from the flute, but it sometimes indicates that the flute is not as stable. I am always open to be proven wrong, especially since I own many of the flutes!
Here is a reference to the British importation of KOKRA from India:
http://tiny.cc/ffeo8

This book is even more revealing! "...Employed in the manufacture of musical instruments, especially flutes."
http://tiny.cc/sma13

I rest my case...