A Practice Set in Kit form??

Baen · Post by **Baen** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:38 pm

Just curious if anyone has had any experience with a practice set in kit form that you finish and put together. It's offered by Davy Stephenson. Here's the link:

http://www.bagpipeworks.com/other.htm

Still looking at what's out there in terms of someone wanting to start on the pipes. Of course, I don't know how this set would be in terms of loudness, since that is also an issue I'm thinking about.

thanks for any input,
Baen

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:52 pm

Precut parts in a kit (w/ full instructions) sounds like a great way to save money on a practice set and learn to appreciate the work that goes into making them. However, Davy hasn't been answering e-mail messages and the phone number on the website has been disconnected.

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:46 pm

Have you seen the Penny Chanter kit?

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:32 am

I own the penny chanter kit, and fom personal experience and from experience of other pipers who have delt with David, I'd say steer well clear of this kit at this point in time. The quality of both construction, consistency and reeds have fluctuated greatly in the past few years.

Davy Stevenson's work *looks* better but without having one in my hands to make a direct comparison, there's no way to know that for sure. I think the fact that he's un-reachable right now is a good indicator. BE CAREFUL!

Having been through the ringer myself over all this stuff for almost two years - I HONESTLY think the best route is still just save up the money and buy a *real* half-set from a amker who knows what he's doing, can REALLY give you what you want, and is willing to stand behind his product in a fair, and prompt manner.

Best of luck!

djm · Post by **djm** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:21 am

I don't know that I would get upset with current problems contacting Davy Stevenson. It could be something as simple as that he's moved and the web page hasn't been updated. For all the hype about e-commerce, the web page is usually the last thing anybody thinks to update.

However, having watched what goes into the making of sets, I would really caution you to think twice about this kit route. Note that they tell you it will take 4-5 DAYS to put this together - and that's full time for someone who knows what they're doing. If you have no experience as an instrument maker/tinkerer, and you unknowingly screw the kit up, who ya gonna call? Where's the savings? Building kits is for hobbyists who want to spend their time building kits. There are no real financial savings or benefits going the kit route.

There is more than enough to occupy your mind in just learning how to play the these *&@#ing things. I would have to second the above suggestions that you go with a reputable maker, hopefully located close to you, and take full advantage of after-sales service on a good quality instrument. Leave the puttzing around with kit-building for someone who has nothing else to do with their time.

djm

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:27 am

Well put, djm and Brian!

Kevin Popejoy · Post by **Kevin Popejoy** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:46 am

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:50 pm

Sorry to have ruffled feathers Kevin. I will not give names here as to who I've spoken with both to protect privacy, and also because there are many whos names I've simply forgotten. I will list some of the details experienced by myself and others in private email if anyone cares to iquire - as I have done in the past.

Thanks for your thoughts though. Those that I've heard from DID in fact find it helpful.

Brian~

Kevin Popejoy · Post by **Kevin Popejoy** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:00 am

anima · Post by **anima** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:31 pm

derelict pipemaker of your acquaintance.

that's rich, he'll like that.

Jeff

tansy · Post by **tansy** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:50 pm

i'll have to go along with kevin as my experience was similer. i ordered mine at tim brittens advice and while i waited the 2 months i built my bellows, bag and droans. the chanter arrived very playable, 2 good reeds and i played it long enough to know i was way hooked for life, then ordered a D in wood from bruce childress and a year later a B.
i don't play it much any more, but everytime i do it is fine, sometimes a bridal adjustment. i've been thinking of selling it as now i have four chanters. four different reeds to contend with and make

i would have to recomend the penny chanter, it was worth it to me to have dave make it and reed it, though i could build one now.
it is very in tune and has a good, loud tone and is almost indestructable.

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:52 pm

[quote="Kevin Popejoy]

1. "Please don't cite un-named sources to lend weight to un-specified problems. I'm not interested in "names" anyway, that's not the point. Anything less is unfair to the maker and the readers of this forum."

2. "I don't particularly feel David needs me to jump to his defense. His contributions to piping speak volumes in his own defense. But the fact is, for good or ill, this forum is a primary research vehicle for many piping beginners."

3. "I always found Daye's service to be excellent. Being somewhat anal about such things, I saved all of our correspondence. Quite a large file. God bless the patient."
Kevin Popejoy[/quote]

I'll try to address your points here Kevin, as you still seem pretty bent over this.

1. David himself cites unspecified sources on his own webpage http://daye1.com/pc_intro.html which make claims as to the playability and intonation of his work. Simply put, these claims do NOT hold with regard to his current production units that are shipping. When I have spoken with David on the phone about the quality issues experienced on several of his sets, the issue was quickly glossed over. If you got one of the first and it was of decent workmanship, great. But know that things have changed since then.

2. As for the reputation of David as a pipemaker, that lies with the individual piper. I simply don't care how many people swear by this maker or that maker's work, sound, or reed skills. They have a lot to prove to every new customer - especially when the customer is planning on paying them hundreds to thousands of their own money for a reliable product.

3. I have always found David's service to be slow, communication non-existant at times, and the quality of workmanship fair at best. Certainly not what a piper - new or old - would look for in a decent maker. In the past few years, speaking with tens of pipers from all over the world, the sentiment seems to be pretty much the same:

The penny-chanter is not the same as a regular chanter - and should never be labeled as such. It is a kit, an alternative to simply spending a couple hundred dollars more and buying a standard practice set. It should be noted, they do not play the same way, they do not sound the same way, nor do they have the same possibilities for upgrades as a standard set will have.

Having played many other sets over the years now, the penny-chanter seems to fill the niche bewteen the pakistani pipes with the plastic reeds (and the mouth blown uilleann practice chanter from Song of the Sea) and a regular set. I wish I would have known this when I ordered mine - but experience has been a good teacher in this case.

Hope that helps to clear the air.

bwilson · Post by **bwilson** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:07 pm

Brian Lee wrote: 1. .... Simply put, these claims do NOT hold with regard to his current production units that are shipping.... If you got one of the first and it was of decent workmanship, great. But know that things have changed since then.
[\quote]

I don't know why you think you can make such a sweeping claim. You're saying that none of Daye's recent penny chanters are any good?? I'm no expert, but I think my penny chanter is proof that you are wrong. It plays easily, has a nice tone and the workmanship is excellent. I've talked with "unnamed sources" of my own who have been similarly pleased with their penny chanters. I have no problem believing that your experience has been different, but it's not fair or helpful to over-generalize your problems.

Brian Lee wrote: The penny-chanter is not the same as a regular chanter - and should never be labeled as such. It is a kit, an alternative to simply spending a couple hundred dollars more and buying a standard practice set. It should be noted, they do not play the same way, they do not sound the same way, nor do they have the same possibilities for upgrades as a standard set will have.
I don't see anyone claiming that a penny chanter kit is a "regular chanter" (whatever that is). It is obviously a kit -- if you don't like to make things yourself, then you might want to think twice about getting a kit, either a penny chanter or any other kit. Moreover, the few hundred dollars difference in price can be significant. I wouldn't have taken up piping at this point in my life if I had to spend those extra dollars.

As far as the way the penny chanter plays and how it sounds, I can't complain about mine. I haven't played a lot of other sets, but I've seen a number of people playing "regular chanters" who seem to have an awful time getting them to play.

Brian Lee wrote: Hope that helps to clear the air.

No, it seems like you're just making even more sweeping generalizations.

janice · Post by **janice** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 8:24 pm

Dave gave me his very first prototype chanter seven years ago (I've known him since 1990), and that chanter saved me many times when my Britton reed was being fussy. I even used it once on a big fancy schmancy commercial gig (for Molson's beer, for those of you are interested) when my Britton reed/chanter setup closed right up on me.

Dave has always been very generous with his time and reed making ability with me, and I was really happy for him when he was able to quit his university computer gig and go into pipemaking full time. I got another chanter from him 3 years ago and it worked even better than the prototype.

Besides which, I've always admired him for playing GHPs at Kent State (yes, that Kent State). Seems they needed a way to get the demonstrating students from one part of the campus to another quickly.....Dave piped them around the campus and was an integrel part of the antiwar protest.

Royce · Post by **Royce** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:49 pm

Brian Lee wrote: Having played many other sets over the years now, the penny-chanter seems to fill the niche bewteen the pakistani pipes with the plastic reeds (and the mouth blown uilleann practice chanter from Song of the Sea) and a regular set. I wish I would have known this when I ordered mine - but experience has been a good teacher in this case.

Hope that helps to clear the air.

1 We were talking about the kit I think, and though Kevin puts up a great defense for buying one made by David Himself, he tries to gloss over what he admits is not necessarily an easy kit to assemble at a beginner or should we concede, non piper level, naming specifically the need for a drill press to locate and drill the tone holes properly. Uh, about 90% of making the instrument play in tune I might add.

2 I got one of the early white jobs and David built it Himself and the design of the thing is such that that plastic is going to look clunky no matter what, because you can't actually cut details into it and sanding leaves a melty-looking surface etc. That and he mis-drilled back D so it has a divot out of the top of the hole, and a chatter mark where the bit skittered down the side. Well, it works great and the reed is great, and I had two more reeds made that I haven't had to resort to so I cut them all up and used them in my other chanter because they had cracks that had been glued by David so I hadn't any respect for them even if they did play well. I figured if I wrecked them it was no great loss, but they actually ended up playing well on a different staple, trimmed up for the Gallagher. I don't know how you can grade workmanship on a thing like the penny chanter because it's more like a cross between plastic plumbing and a tin whistle than a good UP stick.

3 I don't know how successful his new delrin, lathe-turned outer sleeve looks or works, but that's entirely different from the originals. I think the new version is a lot more attractive than the old ones and doesn't scream "highschool shop project" at your audience in public.

4 He gave up on attempts to make wood versions, either by step-drilling or turning wood sleeves to go over the brass bore tubes. So in this sense hes isn't really a "pipe maker" in any conventional, certainly traditional sense. He's something of a theorist/experimenter who's found a different path entirely.

5 I'm on his sh*t list from way way back when he didn't like what I had to say about a few things on the rec.music.makers.bagpipe, but in spite of that he had till recently been very courteous and prompt in business dealings. I suspect he may no longer be taking email or anything else from me in the way of business or communication because of some prophetic claims I made on his little mailing list about a year ago concerning a stolen chanter, prophecies which were essentially fulfilled in full public view onstage this year's Willie Week. This being said, apart from probably being very over-extended, I think his service has been for most well above the sort most pipe "makers" are capable of just for logistical reasons alone.

6 The PC is well above the Pakistani or plastic/pretend chanter setups. It's a very playable, very reliable, very consistently reproduced instrument in its own right. While the tone may not stack up to any of the good wood chanters, it's indestructable reed/build characteristics make it a dead-sure backup chanter that I have used several times, not because I wouldn't have been able to coaxe my Gallagher back into perfect order given ten minutes or so, but because it was just easier to pull out the PC rather than take an awkward break in the gig or session and risk dorking up a good reed with hasty corrections made under very atypical conditions.

7 You live were the valley floor is 5600 feet above sealevel. Up on the benches or in the canyons add a thousand or more to that. Your humidity is from zero to 20% all summer, and 40% most of the spring and fall, and only a few months at best in the dead of winter does ambient humidity approach "normal" of 60-70% but then it's cold so you play indoors in forced-air systems again at 0% humidity, at ungodly room temperatures like 76F which desert dwellers seem to think is comfortable. That may have something to do with reed/design problems in tuning and playability areas. Every set of pipes I have taken from sealevel up there has gone goofy in one way or another and has had to be seriously reset to play there well.

8 I built the Daye bag/bellows kit, though the bag was crap (vinyl) I've installed and prefer the bellows and valve/blowpipe system to the original on my Burke full set. (Even though I've bored out the Burke blowpipe.) So even if you don't get a real bag and a real chanter out of a PC starter setup, you end up with a great bellows and supply system, a good backup chanter for the rest of your life, and a year or so's jump on learning to play, because the PC's playing characteristis are pretty standard UP, as if there really is such a thing.

9 As you say however, I've seen heard *and played* at least four others locally, and they were crap and the reeds were crap. But then I heard one of the same playing fine later after re-reeding, and I've even heard one with a plastic reed that sounded OK. So results with the PC are as variable as with any design.

10 The only negative characteristic I find about the Daye PC is that it seems very unforgiving about playing the chanter off the knee, so you can't as easily fake from closed F# or G or E on the knee lower octave playing to swelling it up and slurring it up off the knee. The pitch changes a lot more than my Gallagher for example, which frankly doesn't care much on the knee, off the knee or what fingering you use. But if you play clean, closed fingering all the time the Daye plays very true. I certainly wouldn't put anyone off buying one or dealing with David.

Royce