Staple or Reed..... Which is more important?

[rorybbellows]

The greatest pipemaker who ever lived, Alain Froment designed his instruments to be fitted with tubing staples, because he recognised that pipers want to play instruments and not spend time reeding them or acquiring the skill or tools to make rolled staples. Good and busy pipers don’t have time to be sending their chanter to a reedmaker when they need a reed , so the genius of Froment was to make pipes that are easier to reed by the piper himself.
One example of the evolution process and the start of the extinction of rolled staples is the work of Cillian O’Brien. Cillian’s chanters are a Rowsome based chanter but Cillian has brought the design on in leaps and now makes one of the best sounding concert pitch chanters. Cillian’s chanters are designed to be fitted with a tubing staple and only a tubing staple. As far as I can see Cillians chanters are probably the most copied chanter by other makers and because the chanters are so good they will be copied by other makers in the future. As I said before the more time consuming and difficult to reed chanters will not be copied and die.

RORY

[tompipes]

Well the truth is that Froment chanters work ok with a tube staple but they work better with a conical staple. The octaves are more in tune and you don't get wonky Es either. In fact some Froment chanters I've reeded gave a flat upper second octave notes with a tube staple.

I've made reeds for O'Briain and his copiers too over the years and with a well designed conical staple you tend not to get screaming sharp high A and Bs that you can, (not always though) get with a tube staple. You have to make a slightly curved flattening rather than a straight flattening on the staple to avoid that sharp octave business. Great chanters too.

As far as I can see Cillians chanters are probably the most copied chanter by other makers

Hardly. I can think of 5 and there may be 2 or 3 more but how many Rowsome copiers are there 50, 60? Cillian's chanters are great and i'm sure there will be more makers copying his designs in the future.

Tommy

[rorybbellows]

Well the truth is that Froment chanters work ok with a tube staple but they work better with a conical staple. The octaves are more in tune and you don't get wonky Es either. In fact some Froment chanters I've reeded gave a flat upper second octave notes with a tube staple.

I've made reeds for O'Briain and his copiers too over the years and with a well designed conical staple you tend not to get screaming sharp high A and Bs that you can, (not always though) get with a tube staple. You have to make a slightly curved flattening rather than a straight flattening on the staple to avoid that sharp octave business. Great chanters too.

As far as I can see Cillians chanters are probably the most copied chanter by other makers

Hardly. I can think of 5 and there may be 2 or 3 more but how many Rowsome copiers are there 50, 60? Cillian's chanters are great and i'm sure there will be more makers copying his designs in the future.

Tommy

Every reed maker probably has a different opinion on how best to reed chanters but the fact remains that both Alain Froment and Cillian O'Brien supply or did supply tubing staple reeds with their new chanters and there are loads of professional, semi- professional and gifted amatures out there who play their chanters with the reeds supplied.

Sorry I wasn't very clear on the copied maker point, I meant pipemakers in the last 10 or 15 years that are being copied.

RORY

[CHasR]

LESS FILLING!!!!

TASTES GREAT!!!




ok so not *every* piper will GET that....but still , ya gotta admit...

[ennischanter]

LESS FILLING!!!!

TASTES GREAT!!!




ok so not *every* piper will GET that....but still , ya gotta admit...

Coffee Mate?

[bobkeenan]

Thanks for all of the discussion on my question. I am always learning from you guys. I will add one thing. Once shown how to make a conical staple and provided a good mandrel matched to the chanter. Its easy making good dimensionally repeatable conical staples.

Its the cane/slip that is the tough part for me. I have made a few decent reeds but between cane qualities and my abilities of gouging, sanding, and scraping there is no repeatability.

But here is another question. If you had a chanter made to work with a cylindrical tube staple, then does that mean that the chanter is more accepting of a wide range of slip sizes, shapes, dimensions, scraping. Or in other words,do chanters that require conical staples, also require a tighter tolerance to reed/slip size,shape, and scrapings?

If both the cylindrical and conical staples require the same attention to slip detail..... Then there is not reed production advantage as the conical staple does not add much additional work or expertise.

Another related question. If you have a chanter A made for cylindrical staples and the owner buys a "universal" cylindrical reed. And chanter B made for conical staples and that owner buys a "universal" conical reed. Which chanter has the highest possibility to play well. Or are there too many variations of a conical reed for there to ever be universal reed.

I cant wait for the next tionol where i might participate in a reed workshop!

[BzzzzT]

Well the truth is that Froment chanters work ok with a tube staple but they work better with a conical staple. The octaves are more in tune and you don't get wonky Es either. In fact some Froment chanters I've reeded gave a flat upper second octave notes with a tube staple.

I've made reeds for O'Briain and his copiers too over the years and with a well designed conical staple you tend not to get screaming sharp high A and Bs that you can, (not always though) get with a tube staple. You have to make a slightly curved flattening rather than a straight flattening on the staple to avoid that sharp octave business. Great chanters too.

As far as I can see Cillians chanters are probably the most copied chanter by other makers

Hardly. I can think of 5 and there may be 2 or 3 more but how many Rowsome copiers are there 50, 60? Cillian's chanters are great and i'm sure there will be more makers copying his designs in the future.

Tommy

Every reed maker probably has a different opinion on how best to reed chanters but the fact remains that both Alain Froment and Cillian O'Brien supply or did supply tubing staple reeds with their new chanters and there are loads of professional, semi- professional and gifted amatures out there who play their chanters with the reeds supplied.

Sorry I wasn't very clear on the copied maker point, I meant pipemakers in the last 10 or 15 years that are being copied.

RORY

There is some truth to what Rory says.


I don't have enough experience to determine the importance or implications of a tapered staple on the inherent qualities of a chanter etc. I have been able to reed stuff that takes a tapered staple with a straight one by altering the head. I generally keep several different heads for a shotgun approach. I sometime will roll them if I really have to. I also make basmati conical staples by pressing a heated brass tube over a conical die to get the form. I do this on the lathe at low speed.

BUT!

My pet peve... If you are a pipemaker reading this who uses tapered staples. INCLUDE AN EXTRA STAPLE OR TWO WITH YOUR PIPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now after reading this, you think I'm a jerk or it is a pain to make an extra staple. (If YOU think it is, imagine the guy on the other end) Look at it this way. It takes some skill to form the staple and a tapered mandrel. The local reed dude who will offer to reed the chanter, might not have the tools or skill to make a conical staple. For me, it is just an extra pain, that could be avoided by the pipemaker kindly providing a staple. IMHO this should be included in the price of the chanter. The player should not have to make this decision. The reedmaker might also be swamped with dour pipers all looking for reeds or help. It takes time to make a conical staple and when time is limited, this can be a problem. This helps keep your pipes going in the real world.

I don't think pipes have to be dumbed down to just suit standardized tubing. Though standard tubing is great for convenience and ease in fitting a reed. The pipes are an inherently complex instrument. For the average person, it can be very difficult to learn to roll staples to a specified size; this requires specific skills, tools and knowledge. To the super nerdy, mechanically inclined, engineer, technical, space-brained types, this may not seem like a big deal; but, for the average person, often with limited free-time, who probably has a few screw drivers and a hammer in their home and MAYBE knows how to use them. Reedmaking and staple making can be a painful endeavor to learn. When I got the hair up my bum to learn the pipes, I was a junior in high school. I only knew how to measure and use basic tools. I had never heard of calipers, a thou, gouges etc etc. In 98 none of my friends knew or cared about Irish music and the few who did play the pipes where I lived were still “figuring them out.” If it was not for the kindness of a local pipemaker (a 2+ hour drive) with significant technical skills, I don't think I would be playing the pipes. Reedmaking was a necessity for me, living in the desert and being fairly isolated. It was painful learning some of this stuff. I think being a stubborn SOB helps more than skill starting out. I eventually learned additional skills through my career choice and personal instruction that informed my later skills in reedmaking. Now fabricating stuff seems easy and tool creation is no big deal. But starting out, it was quite perplexing. Maybe I rode the short bus; but the knowledge, skills and tools that can assist someone in fabricating this stuff is often taken for granted with new or young players. If you do not live in an area with a support group, extra staples and measurements are golden.

Pipes need extra staples and general measurements for reeds! They are enough of a pain already!



- Jason

[geoff wooff]

Pipes need extra staples and general measurements for reeds! They are enough of a pain already!



- Jason

Agreed !!

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

In re: making mandrels, a few years ago I bought a Jet mini lathe off Craigslist for $300. Among sundry other uses for piping I make mandrels on it, with a wood dead center that has a hollowed out metal slug in it; a bit of drill rod held in the Jacob's chuck in the headstock, with the other end in the dead center, and you can file out a new mandrel in about 2 minutes. Smooth up with sandpaper. When done you saw off the part that was in the dead center, which is now larger than the rest of the mandrel, of course. May be of interest. I used to do the Dave Daye approach of making mandrels with an electric drill and thick apron of leather in the lap, which was much more hit-and-miss.

Dave's website used to have Ben Koehler's plans for a "desk lathe" for the same purposes. Never tried that myself. I splurged a bit for the Jet lathe as I like to turn spindles/bowls/pipe tampers/flute swabs/etc etc etc but Harbor Freight has a cheapy mini wood lathe for $130, I see, so there are less expensive avenues you can pursue too. Certainly you don't need super tight tolerances for filing down a metal rod. Just make sure you can fit a drill chuck into the headstock - for that you have to have a Morse tapered head and tail stock. #1 is the smallest, mine is #2, there's #3 as well.

I've never bothered to affix my lathe to a stand, or bolt it down to my work bench, even. It just wobbles around...

[ausdag]

Is this tapered /cylindrical dicotomy referring to the final formed staple, or the shape of the staple blank pre-rolling? Because from what I can see, both rolled and tube staples, in their final form, are tapered; tubing staples sometimes seemingly moreso than rolled staples.

[myrddinemrys]

http://www.cartertools.com/specific.html
looks pretty slick and small enough for this purpose.

A drill works, but man it takes forever.

[madfortrad]

Less talking more making

If it needs a rolled staple roll it ..... if it needs a tube use a tube.

[BzzzzT]

It's a fact: It's the Devil and not the reed that makes the sound.

[donpiper]

tompipes wrote:

You have to make a slightly curved flattening rather than a straight flattening on the staple to avoid that sharp octave business

is the curved flattening concave (narrowing quickly at first, then more gently towards the blades) or convex?
(narrowing gently at first then more quickly towards the blades)

It seems the former would require less thinning of the tails, the latter more to get the pressure at the lip edges right.

[ennischanter]

It's a fact: It's the Devil and not the reed that makes the sound.

I KNEW IT!