Why are there so few female pipers ?

[bensdad]

I would go a long way to hear any one of the female pipers mentioned in this thread.
Why are there so many mediocre male pipers?

[highland-piper]

I would go a long way to hear any one of the female pipers mentioned in this thread.
Why are there so many mediocre male pipers?

By definition, half of all pipers must be below average. Since most pipers are men it is easy to prove that most mediocre pipers must be male.

QED

[rorybbellows]

What we really need are some female pipemakers. I dont think there has ever been any female pipemakers.

RORY

[Anita]

This is an interesting thread, and while some of the responses have been "humorous", it is actually a subject I've pondered for a while. As a woman who absolutely loves the sound of bagpipes, I'd been interested in playing them for years. I play fiddle already, but was really drawn to the sound of the pipes(especially uilleann pipes) . I did notice however that there was a preponderence of men playing and had never even seen a woman play them, let alone knowing any who did personally(I guess there are none where I live). So I approached this very tentatively, not being sure if there was some real reason why women in general were not playing them. I was really fortunate in that the pipemaker I approached about learning is very interested in encouraging women to play and he has been incredibly supportive in encouraging me to do so. I started playing last fall and other than the fact that I know I'll likely never be able to play a Bb set due to the size of my hands, I can see no reason at all why women can't play them as well or better than any man can.

It is interesting to note however that cultural mores play a huge role in who play what, and there have been times when playing the fiddle, harp or accordian were seen as "male" pursuits for the most part while we don't tend it see it that way anymore.

I think that besides the lack of female role models; when girls don't see women doing an activity they may think that this is something that only guys do, there is also the factor of the tendency when mostly guys do something, to even if unconsciously, become a sort of "boys club" which can feel very hard to penetrate for women.

I just discovered this thread as I've been away at school studying violin construction. I can tell you that this is also an area where there are some women but not many, there is no reason why women can't handle tools well, and that attitudes make a huge difference. A class I took a few weeks ago was taught by a self-proclaimed "male chauvenist pig" and he makes it his mission to make the class as awlful as possible for any woman who braves it. Thankfully my current class is not being taught by such a caveman and I'm learning an incredible amount. I think however that it helps to realize how much our attitudes and assumptions about what women(or men for that matter) can or should do make a huge difference, and being supportive and welcoming can make all the difference.

And yes, female pipemakers Rory- that would be good too; although I know that there are two who make some parts of the pipes. I'd perhaps have gone this route instead of violin construction/restoration but again would need someone to study with........

Anita

[Ceann Cromtha]

I still don't believe for an instant that women play music differently than men because they are women and that there is some physiological component to the assertion that women allegedly don't like the bagpipes.

If you could prove it you could win a Nobel Prize.

Actually, they lowered the bar for that in recent years. I think that such a feat would now merit the deluxe platinum edition with the hubcap diamond star halo around situated around Alfred's head (done up right in pink Swarovski crystals), or, multi-Nobel prizes (one for each category in one fell swoop).

[boyd]

My Rogge B set was for the most part made by a female
and IT is pretty darned good, I think

[billh]

... I started playing last fall and other than the fact that I know I'll likely never be able to play a Bb set due to the size of my hands, I can see no reason at all why women can't play them as well or better than any man can.

Good on you Anita for jumping in, role models or no. There are some good ones out there. Speaking of which, has no one mentioned Marion McCarthy in this thread yet?

As for Bflat, well if you decide you want to play Bflat, shop around: the tonehole spacing varies enormously between models.

One of my favorite books on violinmaking was written by Juliet Barker, who is obviously very well regarded.

And yes, female pipemakers Rory- that would be good too; although I know that there are two who make some parts of the pipes. I'd perhaps have gone this route instead of violin construction/restoration but again would need someone to study with........

Anita

It's apparent Rory hasn't been to the Rogge workshop! We might be thinking of some of the same people - there are certainly more than two women making significant parts of pipes at the moment. I'm sure Haike, for one, is well able to make a complete set, although for the moment the current arrangement seems to suit her better. (cf Boyd's comment - Hi Boyd!)

You sound like someone who should be starting to make her own reeds now...

cheers,

Bill

[KAD]

There's also the husband and wife pipemaking team of Benson and Cornelius in western New York: Stephanie Cornelius is the female half of the team.

Anita, I don't know where you live, but try to make it to a tionol if you can. Just being around other uilleann pipers, male or female, is encouraging generally when you're just starting out. (Misery loves company, after all.) If you are anywhere within shouting distance of the Northeast Tionol, come on by! It's a great time! (And there will be a few of us female pipers there: I guarantee it. )

[TheSilverSpear]

I can play most B and Bb chanters I've encountered and I do not have big hands. Like Bill says, tone hole space varies. Never assume anything.

Does not having female role models stop people from doing stuff? Am I just weird because that sort of thing doesn't bother me one way or another?

[Anita]

Hi KAD- I am hoping to make it perhaps this year- I'm in the Northeast and that will be easy to get to- and am looking foward to meeting you and the other female players there(and the guys too of course).

Silver Spear- I think that perhaps needing or not needing role-models is a very individual thing- but definitely needed is acceptance and encouragment as no one learns any of this stuff in a vacuum, and one does need teachers to learn from. At the same time, if young girls only see guys playing pipes they may come to associate it with being a "guy thing", but if they see women doing it, they will assume it is an option for them as well. And yes, I know that there always have to be "firsts" be it a female astronaut, President or Supreme Court Justice, and some women are determined or visionary enough to be the first, but not all are nor should they have to be I think.

re: Bb chanters- yes- I would concur that there are perhaps ways to make one that are smaller- the one I have gotten my hands on would not be playable by me, but again, lots of other women have larger hands than I do as we don't come in one size either I need to master my D set however which is way more of a priority for me at present so Bb is not a concern....

and yes Bill, learning to make reeds is high on my list- I've got the sharp knives for sure



and yes Bill, making

[rorybbellows]

It's apparent Rory hasn't been to the Rogge workshop! We might be thinking of some of the same people - there are certainly more than two women making significant parts of pipes at the moment. I'm sure Haike, for one, is well able to make a complete set, although for the moment the current arrangement seems to suit her better.

Until their name is above the door it doesn’t really count does it ? If they are not out there doing it in their own name , taking responsibility for their work they are going to remain anonymous forever. To quote Boyd “My Rogge B set was for most part made by a female”. At best they may go down in the history books as Rogge factory workers. At worst they will be remembered the same way as the girls that worked with Kenna, Coyne and Harrington.

RORY

[KAD]

I can play most B and Bb chanters I've encountered and I do not have big hands. Like Bill says, tone hole space varies. Never assume anything.

Does not having female role models stop people from doing stuff? Am I just weird because that sort of thing doesn't bother me one way or another?

No, you're not weird. It didn't bother me either. (Or maybe we're both weird! )

[Black Rose]

Women do tend to not like a lot of bass either.

I find that statement contrary to my personal experience with regard to sound preferences, namely, ever since high school I've noticed that females generally prefer a higher bass-to-treble ratio setting on their car sound systems and males tend to prefer a higher treble-to-bass ratio. Maybe this is due to the following interrelationship:

(1) sexual dimorphism: males tend to have a lower pitched voice because they tend to be bigger (and have a larger supralaryngeal vocal tract producing a lower fundamental frequency in their speech) and, inversely, women tend to have a higher pitched voice because they are smaller (and have a smaller supralaryngeal vocal tract producing a higher fundamental frequency in their speech); and

(2) (heterosexual) men and women are attracted to the opposite sex and find many features of the opposite sex attractive (e.g., women associate lower frequencies with men and men associate higher frequencies with women).

That's a funny observation. What's funny is that you present it in a way that presumes your evidence supports your conclusion. People who hear a lot of bass don't need to turn up the bass on a reproduction system. They hear it just fine. Conversely, people who turn down the treble on a sound reproduction system do so because they think they're hearing way too much treble.

When I say women don't like bass I mean it doesn't do the same thing for them apparently that it does for a man. Which is rattle the ba....junk. I'd also debate whether or not you even know what bass is, because every guy I know cranks the subs up and rattles the windows, and frankly, I've never known any woman, girl or grown, who spent her own money on a subwoofer and went to all the time to install it just to feel her arse vibrate. Tweedling stock radio knobs doesn't count as "bass" in my book.

There is no treble-to-bass ratio in the discussion. You could adjust the ratio either way simply by moving the treble down, which apparently raises the bass content. It doesn't add bass content, it just removes some of the treble content. The point in contention is whether or not women or girls prefer some comfortable mid-range-trebly instrument over a screamingly high treble instrument, and the bass observation was largely a passing comment. And in my experience, yes, women actually turn the treble down more than turn the bass up on top of a bright high end.

So you see, when a little girl whines about how she hates bagpipes, the same little girl would turn down the treble on her radio knob when they come on the radio. You just can't do that in life, so you leave or complain. Fixating on a casual side observations about bass doesn't do a thing for your argument about why little girls hate bagpipes. It's because they're getting their treble-favoring ears drilled out. Even if women loved to turn the bass up on the radio, it would have nothing to do with explaining why they aren't on the radio playing a bass guitar or a tuba or something bassy.

Furthermore, you're making a passive argument about listening to somebody else's hard work learning how to play an instrument, not about a hearing preferences that directs you to investing time and talent in learning to play one yourself. Some of those are cultural, but in the end, if you hate bagpipes you aren't going to bother learning them. Some of you just seem really insistant on refusing to accept the notion that females may have some inherent, physical, or genetic bias against bagpipes.

[Mike Hulme]

Female Pipemakers? - Sue McKenzie (wife of Ian).

A thought that strikes me is that historically it is men that have gone out to work to bring home a wage, thereby giving them their own money. A wife staying at home to look after home and children would have had no disposable income to buy a set of pipes. Of the two photos that Billh put up it would seem fairly certain that "Pretty Maggie Morrisey" would not have bought her own pipes.

With the emancipation of women, employment and personal, disposable income it is no surprise tht there are more female pipers coming up.

20:1... 5:1... the ratio of men to women pipers is decreasing. Eventually we will be overtaken, assimilated, brought to heel.

Surliness will be a thing of the past.*

* or will be blamed on something else.

[ferris54]

mike I think your a bit confused here,

sue stitches the bags and bellows and I presume helps out in other ways like making ian a cup of tea now and then