A New Take on C flute versus D flute

[Casey Burns]

I think I am meant to be a jazz or swing clarinet player, and this is happening, thanks to a trade in progress with a fellow C&F member (I am currently working on a very nice flute for him in trade for these wonderful clarinets! Thank you L. C.!!!!!).

Something clicked as far as my clarinet playing tonight and with it, a new insight to what we should call either the modern silver flute or our old simple system flutes - i.e., the C flute versus D flute confusion.

6 fingers down (ignoring the thumb on the modern flute for a moment) these play a D that sounds like D. On the simple system flute most of the music that works well for these is in D or G, and this flute should properly be called a D flute.

For years, I thought that the modern C flute was called a C flute simply because it was mostly made with a foot that would play down to C natural. But then in the 60s (plus or minus a decade or two) they added the lower B key and the Gizmo - and I always thought somewhat peevishly that they should now call it a B flute, to further cause confusion (such as my own).

Then along came these clarinets. I hardly listen to Irish music these days, although I have enjoyed it for years. But I am passionate about listening to Swing and Jazz, mostly centered on the music of Django Reinhardt. I play some guitar and with some inherited money actually purchased the guitar of my dreams which I play regularly. But I am still a novice at it and may remain so unless I enact some strict practice discipline and work hard at it. Frankly, I am too busy for this. However I want to play this music, and thought by trying the clarinet and soprano sax, enabled by a lifetime of playing several wind instruments, that I could come up to speed for sessions and performing quicker theoretically. A nearby group of friendly musicians who play this repertoire have been after me to do this for years, so that I could play regularly with them.

However, it appears I have been going at it the wrong way. Using clarinets of various pitches, along with such tools as the Amazing Slow Downer which can import my entire iTunes library, I've been attempting to play along with these Django recordings, learning entirely by ear (even though I can read music well and have for years). I've been adjusting the pitch of the recordings and selecting which clarinet to play as if I would be playing these in D - that is, the 6 finger down note being the root of the scale (I'm sticking to the first register for now so I don't drive Nancy nuts! I'm still getting used to the clarinet embouchure). It hasn't been working, and I found trying to sound bluesy or jazzy awkward and nearly impossible. Improvisation was impossible. The years of playing wind instruments seemed to have no bearing on this, in terms of accessing past skills. I wondered if the associated brain cells were even still there, or if this was a sign of inevitable dementia.

But tonight something just clicked and I started playing tunes as if I was playing them in C on the C flute - that is, 7 fingers down being the root of the scale. All of a sudden playing bluesy or jazzy became much easier and I found I could play along with about everything (I've been listening to a steady diet of everything Django recorded for a few years now). I could even improvise!

I then remembered that much of the music that I played on the silver flute from 5th grade until college was mostly centered around the key of C. This was hard wired into me at an early age, and the wiring is still there at age 55, thankfully. The Modern Clarinet Boehm System is a bit more complicated but fundamentally the same in the structure of the fingering as the modern flute. Once I started playing the clarinet "C Centric" it all of a sudden worked for me tonight, which was a wonderful thing.

Thus back to the C flute. For those classically trained on it, playing in the key of C works well, and feels right. This explains why an audition using Mozart's Flute Concerto in D maybe didn't go so well for me once, way back when. Had it been in C, I would have maybe done better in my audition and gotten into that one orchestra I badly wanted to get into (despite the usual obstacle of nepotism benefitting someone else which usually determined who got in to these things!). But the key of C feels much more natural on the modern flute than the key of D - which is why it should be called that. Even with the B key.

But playing in C on our simple system flutes, even with keys, is a cumbersome task. Playing in D - no problemo.

So bottom line - the two names - C flute and D flute - are quite accurate for these two flute types, in that these reflect well the keys that these are easiest to play in. On the C flute, 7 fingers down, closing the two open holes on the foot is the fundamental "easy" scale of the flute (the 4th fingered XXX X00 and sounding F Natural). On the D flute, 6 fingers down is the fundamental "easy" scale of the flute (the 4th fingered XXX 000 and sounding G). Hopefully this will dispel any confusion, besides my own!

Casey

[Sigurthr]

I think you're absolutely right, Casey. It does make sense to name them by what keys are easiest on them. I often wonder what Böhm system would be like if XtXX XOO gave F# instead of Fnat.

Difficulty of keys based on fingering systems:
I am in classical training on Böhm system flute, and I play simple system and baroque flute in my spare time. I have always found D to be one of the harder keys to actually play in on Böhm system (the scale is dead easy) despite the easy key signature, and I'm equally proficient in the keys of Db Eb Bb F C G D A E F# so far. For some reason I can play in F#, E, and A easier than playing in D, and certainly C, G, F, Bb, and Eb are WAY easier as well. Likewise I find Ab to be exceptionally difficult on simple system. There are a few keys that I find very difficult on both systems, namely B, but Ab is a real pain as well.

My point being that there are some tunes I can play tremendously easier on one system than the other. For example; Badinerie (in original key of Bminor (Dmaj)) is easiest on Simple System, if I had to rate it's difficulty I would say a 4 out of 10. If I rate the same piece in the same key on Böhm System, I would rate it a 7 out of 10. If you transpose the piece down a whole step to Aminor (Cmaj) for Böhm System, the difficulty drops down to a 3 out of 10. Doing so also inversely affects it's difficulty on Simple System; in A minor Badinerie is now a 7 out of ten, especially if you don't have a Cnat key, throwing in those OXOXXO's while bouncing up and down the range so rapidly is quite difficult, especially if your flute won't tolerate the Eb key being pressed for it!

As for the notion of naming a flute by it's lowest pitch:
Given how recent the addition of a B foot to the Böhm System is, I was very surprised when I learned that it was common in the Antique Simple System world. I remember reading about a G foot simple system flute as well, I think there were close to twenty keys on that thing! Speaking of antique flutes, there was a period of time when the name convention was changing and simple system flutes with a D foot were being called C flutes because of the convention that non-transposing instruments are in C. You would also have to consider modern simple system flutes that are actually pitched such that 6 fingers down yields a C, we call these C flutes now, and it is true Cmaj is easiest on them, but only if you treat it as a non-transposing instrument, which is not how the majority of players use them! All this complexity makes you want to just stick to the very verbose but clear method of calling a flute by the fingering system, 6 finger note, and naming the foot. I think if you said "simple system XXXXXX D with C foot" everyone understands what you meant, and it works equally well for Böhm: "Böhm system XXXXXX D with B foot". The problem is also what makes it work; verbosity.

Good luck with your clarinet playing!

[Casey Burns]

Am also understanding why the Boehm flute has the low B, and why even some German and Austrian simple system flutes had this note. Its simply the leading 7th to the root of the scale.

I've made a few flutes for players in Galicia with a foot joint key to give C#, which is used in Galician traditional music. This is easier to do than making the whole C foot - and dealing with articulated keys. I had this idea of making such a foot available, but with two vents below the C#. Plug the upper one and the bottom note would play C natural.

[Kypfer]

So bottom line - the two names - C flute and D flute - are quite accurate for these two flute types, in that these reflect well the keys that these are easiest to play in. On the C flute, 7 fingers down, closing the two open holes on the foot is the fundamental "easy" scale of the flute (the 4th fingered XXX X00 and sounding F Natural). On the D flute, 6 fingers down is the fundamental "easy" scale of the flute (the 4th fingered XXX 000 and sounding G).

... thanks, this explains to me why Aulos, Yamaha et al produced their plastic "recorder fifes" in "german" fingering rather than baroque

[MTGuru]

Once I started playing the clarinet "C Centric" it all of a sudden worked for me tonight, which was a wonderful thing.

I didn't read too carefully. But since you mentioned playing mostly the lower (chalumeau) register, I'd guess technically you'd probably really mean "F centric".

It sounds like your basic (and correct, IMO) insight is that the named key of the instrument has nothing to do with the lowest note, and everything to do with the natural [major] scale produced when you lift-one-finger-at-a-time. And the natural starting point on Boehmish instruments really is 7 fingers down, not 6.

If you altered a keyless flute or whistle so that the oooooo fingering gives you C-nat instead of C sharp, then you could properly call that a G instrument, even though the lowest note is still a D. (In fact, I believe this sort of naming convention is applied to many non-Western flutes, where the key name is based on xxxooo.) Then also alter the F-sharp to F-nat (like German fingering), and you'd have a C instrument, and so on.

I grew up playing Boehmish sax, clarinet and flute (including jazz) long before ever seriously touching a trad D woodwind. So the different conceptual naming gymnastics seem perfectly normal to me.

[Steve Bliven]

Once I started playing the clarinet "C Centric" it all of a sudden worked for me tonight, which was a wonderful thing.

I didn't read too carefully. But since you mentioned playing mostly the lower (chalumeau) register, I'd guess technically you'd probably really mean "F centric".

But if you were using all six fingers down (XXX XXX) would that make it X-centric?

(Been reading too much Jem...)

Steve

[talasiga]

..........................
So bottom line - the two names - C flute and D flute - are quite accurate for these two flute types, in that these reflect well the keys that these are easiest to play in. On the C flute, 7 fingers down, closing the two open holes on the foot is the fundamental "easy" scale of the flute (the 4th fingered XXX X00 and sounding F Natural). On the D flute, 6 fingers down is the fundamental "easy" scale of the flute (the 4th fingered XXX 000 and sounding G). Hopefully this will dispel any confusion, besides my own!
......

I had already covered this issue in these forums some time ago but, not surprisingly, you mustn't have been paying attention.

One of my takes on this goes like this:-
Regardless of system used a flute may be described by the most "natural" fingering that gives a major scale from the lowest possible note available.

Therefore,
*on an Irish D flute, starting with all fingers down, if you raise one finger in sequence for each note from the lowest to the highest finger you will get the seven notes (prior to the octave) for D major.
*on a Boehm C, its the same thing except that the lowest finger is a pinky and the highest
finger off is the left thumb (on the lower thumb point) for the Si or Ti before octave for all the notes of C major (prior to the octave).
*on a C Boehm with B in the footjoint, C major is still the nominative scale because from the low B you cannot get a B major scale with easy or natural fingering (in the terms that I described) because for a start the pinky is gonna have to be used for the Do, Ray and Mi, a cross finger for the Fa, the other pinky for So etc etc ......

[talasiga]

and therefore,
*simple system 8 keyed D flute (with lower C# and C) is still a D flute. That is, the natural (one digit off for each successive note) fingering from low C would give you C Lydian rather than C Ionian. D major is the key for this flute because it is the only major scale scale you can get from the lowest note on it with natural succession of finger raising.

[Chiffed]

I think you're absolutely right, Casey. It does make sense to name them by what keys are easiest on them. I often wonder what Böhm system would be like if XtXX XOO gave F# instead of Fnat.

Absolutely. Reels that can rip along on simple-system mess with my brain on sax or clarinet.
It's no worse, though, than going in between an old 8-key (with all the proper venting) and a modernized keyless, or moving between flutes with c=oxx oxo and ones that work fine with c=oxo ooo. I really don't know how the pipers cope!

Yeah, I know. Practice.

[JohnB]

This is interesting stuff as I've been tooting about on a borrowed clarinet so thanks Casey you made it a little clearer as I was trying to play it 6 fingers as a flute. Am still trying to get my head around the clarinet being a transposing instrument - alot of the time I'm wondering what note I'm actually playing (but that's probably down to me being thick)

I've just thought of a session I was playing in long ago where there was a soprano sax player playing along with all the Irish trad standards in D and G. I was watching his fingering patterns and they didn't look far off what I was playing on the flute (ie he wasn't playing lots off those keys on levers) but as he was playing an Eb instrument it seemed odd - all I could come up with was that he'd pulled the head out or adapted it to play in D ?? any thoughts?

Oh by the way Django also rules here

John

[Denny]

first thought, soprano is generally Bb

second: there are a few "C" saxes out there

a Bb player will call the pitch Bb a C.

Code: Select all

Bb      D (folk)  Fingered on Bb
B       C#          XOO  OOO
Bb      C           XOO  XOO
A       B           XXO  OOO
G       A           XXX  OOO
F       G           XXX  XOO
E       F#          XXX  XXO
D       E           XXX  XXX
C       D           OXO  OOO

so it's up two 1/2 steps and remove 2 sharps or add two flats....

[MTGuru]

first thought, soprano is generally Bb

Yep. I believe I've seen a sopranino sax in Eb, tiny little thing.

From the description of few fingered accidentals, I'd guess C soprano. But for a Bb soprano, playing trad tunes in E and A is not hard either. Trad players used to the "comfy keys" mindset sometimes forget that orchestral musos really do train to play in all 12 keys. You can always tell the classically trained fiddlers at a session when you pick up, say, an Eb whistle and launch into a tune in Ab, and the fiddlers play right along - though they may be shooting eye-daggers at you.

[JohnB]

OOps oh dear silly me of course a soprano is in Bb (must have lost even more braincells than usual in the last 24hrs) so you're probably right and it was like one of these beauties

http://cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/sopr ... sounds.htm

I've loved the sound of those high end instruments - been one of my favourite things since hearing John Coltrane play

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I6xkVRWzCY

Thanks for enlightening me

[oleorezinator]

first thought, soprano is generally Bb

Yep. I believe I've seen a sopranino sax in Eb, tiny little thing.

From the description of few fingered accidentals, I'd guess C soprano. But for a Bb soprano, playing trad tunes in E and A is not hard either. Trad players used to the "comfy keys" mindset sometimes forget that orchestral musos really do train to play in all 12 keys. You can always tell the classically trained fiddlers at a session when you pick up, say, an Eb whistle and launch into a tune in Ab, and the fiddlers play right along - though they may be shooting eye-daggers at you.

And the exceedingly rarer sopranino in f. The c and f saxes were considered orchestral instruments and the eb/Bb were military/concert band/marching band tooters. There's a maker in Germany who came up with this:
http://www.soprillo.com/audio/cd-sopril ... sample.mp3
http://www.soprillo.com/photos/3%20-%20plate.jpg

[George]

There's a standard naming convention that makes a lot of sense ...

The actual concert pitch note that comes out when you finger a 'c' on your instrument is the name. It has nothing to do with the lowest note or the easiest key to play on the instrument.

Bb Trumpet - You play a written 'C' and a 'Bb' in concert pitch comes out
Eb Alto Sax - Written 'C', concert 'Eb'
C Flute - Written 'C', concert 'C'

That convention isn't generally used for folk instruments ... but that's why they still call it a 'C' flute even when it has a low 'B' foot