Just wondering

[Peter Duggan]

I have no idea where you're going with this since it has naught to do with the discussion. Why are you trying to make an argument?

Just want to say (nicely) that IMHO we've got a genuinely interesting thread developing here (and staying remarkably clear of typically 'C&F' thread drift) whether or not it's quite what you expected, and sometimes you just have to accept (happens to me all the time here!) that you can't always maintain control of what you started. So (and this isn't just for Cubitt!) please let's not get it pulled through cross words and fighting now, guys?

[Nanohedron]

(and staying remarkably clear of typically 'C&F' thread drift)

Whatever.

[jiminos]

I have no idea where you're going with this since it has naught to do with the discussion. Why are you trying to make an argument?

Just want to say (nicely) that IMHO we've got a genuinely interesting thread developing here (and staying remarkably clear of typically 'C&F' thread drift) whether or not it's quite what you expected, and sometimes you just have to accept (happens to me all the time here!) that you can't always maintain control of what you started. So (and this isn't just for Cubitt!) please let's not get it pulled through cross words and fighting now, guys?

ok... i'll behave...

be well,

jim

[Peter Duggan]

(and staying remarkably clear of typically 'C&F' thread drift)

Whatever.

Nearly edited that after remembering Terry's injection of Star Trek but, yes, most of the rest seems to have developed pretty logically from the OP...

So surely you're not suggesting (smiley noted!) that C&F thread drift's just a chimera?

[Steve Bliven]

So surely you're not suggesting (smiley noted!) that C&F thread drift's just a chimera?

[Nanohedron]

Fearful of Thread Drift you are.

[Peter Duggan]

No capital C, as in definition 1b here...
'an imaginary monster compounded of incongruous parts'

Or definition 3 here...
'a horrible or unreal creature of the imagination; a vain or idle fancy'

Fearful of Thread Drift you are.

Who, me? Only in Appalachia!

[Terry McGee]

Can't remember where I specifically got the 1920s, but I didn't make it up. Niall Keegan places it in the early 20th Century. Grey Larsen talks about the flute becoming popular due to the success of the Boehm flute starting on Page 52 of his book. It seems logical that it would take some time for a flute created in 1847 to overtake existing flutes, and then some more time for the discarded flutes to permeate Ireland. Both sources agree that any earlier use of the flute was fairly limited. I have seen this in other sources as well, but these two happened to be handy and easy to reference.

Maybe since Terry has jumped into the thread, he can shed some light. If anyone knows, he does.

Argghhh, I should have kept my head down while I had the chance!

The reality is I don't know that much about the history of the flute in Ireland, and it bothers me that perhaps we collectively don't. I'll be pleased to be proven wrong, providing we can pull some real facts out.

My feeling is that it was more popular than we might think. I'm particularly reminded of Francis (Chief) O'Neill's (himself a flute player) opening to the chapter "The Flute and Its Patrons" in his Irish Minstrels and Musicians : The Story of Irish Music (1913):

No musical instrument was in such common use among the Irish peasantry as the flute. From the "penny whistle" to the keyed instrument in sections it was always deservedly popular, for unlike the fiddle and the bagpipe, it involved no expense beyond the purchase price. Complete in itself, the flute needed but a wetting to be always in tune, and disjointed or whole could be carried about without display or inconvenience. Besides, if not broken by accident or design, it would outlive its owner.

O'Neill goes on to detail a number of flute players in the 19th century, and ropes in Oliver Goldsmith in the 18th, who "disputed his passage through Europe", armed with only "a guinea in his pocket, one shirt to his back, and a flute in his hand".

The NLI records 38 woodwind makers in Dublin / Eire, which is interesting compared to 16 in Birmingham, 12 in Edinburgh, 10 in Liverpool, no mention of Belfast (but of course all paling against 400 odd in London!)

It really is more than a bit scandalous that we don't know more about this! Anyone looking for a PhD topic?

Terry

[Nanohedron]

Searching around the Web, it appears that before the reign of Henry VIII, the transverse flutey object is not known to have been attested within English letters. It took King Hal's adoption of it into the military in the form of the fife, of which there is the first known mention made. Now, considering the sheer numbers of Irish alone (AND Scots, AND Welsh, AND you name it) serving as soldiers as they so regularly did in the English military, it is no stretch of logic to accept that the fife at least would have dispersed to these soldiers' homelands very soon, and with it the general principles of the transverse flute. What we DON'T know is how they were used, if at all, in the kitchen and bothy. My money says that if you have an instrument or knowledge of it, somebody'll use it sooner or later somehow. And why not? It might catch on. The idea that the flutes at your disposal could be of a number of possible pitches, cannot have been an unknown, or a stumbling-block, I would think. In the Irish folk tradition, performance has always at its root been thought of in terms of a solo player (there's your "Pure Drop"), so in that regard flutes of any pitch at all - we know that elder, or bour-tree, flutes were made by talented amateurs, and pitch could have been anywhere - should do for the job at hand; bear in mind that the session in ITM is a fairly recent phenomenon, and it is in ensemble playing that the idea of pitch agreement - standards, over time - becomes germane, because necessity imposes it. Perhaps it could be argued that the concert D flute played a part in the driving force toward that standardisation. But I'm unwilling to entertain that there were no transverse flutes in any way, shape, or form at all in Ireland, including her traditional music, before Rudall's and Pratten's lovelies escaped their wonted, more genteel haunts. I AM willing to say that we just don't know.

[Cubitt]

Never in the annals of human communication have the posts of so many resulted in the edification of so few. I withdraw the question.

[benhall.1]

Never in the annals of human communication have the posts of so many resulted in the edification of so few. I withdraw the question.

Oh, I think many will have thought that there has been at least a little bit of progress. Just not with you.

[LorenzoFlute]

Indeed, I think this last posts on the history of flutes in Ireland are far more interesting then why we are using flutes in keys other than D...
If you can't find a reason for yourself, don't bother and save your money.

[NicoMoreno]

@Peter:
Sorry about the confusion, I meant that the pipes thing was due to adding parts (similar to adding strings) where the violin and flute are (to me) similar because they refer to physical size, not adding parts. Even if the pitch changes with one and not the other.
@Ben Hall - I'm not surprised to be mistaken about the principle flute player. Thanks!
@Cubitt - I doubt very much Eb flutes were made for playing with horns and clarinets. My theory is that it started with fifes, usually in about Bb (with some degree of latitude given for differing pitch standards), and then as they developed larger repertoires, they wanted to add different voices. So F, Eb, bass Bb, piccolo Eb, all showed up. These are band flutes in the sense that they are for flute bands... not brass and reed bands.

Regarding the history of the flute in Ireland, I'm glad others have been quoting O'Neill and referencing that. I meant to say that I couldn't believe I forgot to mention the obvious... After all, he talks about learning the flute in the 1850s in Ireland, so it was "common" (at least enough that he could).

I think it's safe to say that the objections to any flute being used in Ireland prior to the 20s, and specifically the simple system flutes, have been lifted. As far as different keys being "extremely recent", that too I think has been shown to be untrue.

So, too, have many reasons been given for the original question "why use different keys of flutes?"
- Because it sounds different
- Because another keyed flute might be necessary to play along with another instrument (flat pipes, low pitched accordions/concertinas, etc), this includes Eb flutes and tuned-up fiddles
- Because a different pitch standard may be in effect (mostly historical reasons I'm sure)
- Just for the sheer hell of it.

I'm sure there are more reasons, and I'm sure finer points could be drawn out of these ones.

If anyone still hasn't been educated as to the reasons why, and the history behind when, different keyed flutes might be used, that's through no fault of the posters!

[jiminos]

Never in the annals of human communication have the posts of so many resulted in the edification of so few. I withdraw the question.

oh, i don't know.... i certainly learned a lot... about several things and people....

huge "Thank You's" to Nico, Nano, Terry, Dunn, Peter and all the others for their historical contributions.

thank you, Cubitt, for the original post.

be well,

jim

[Nanohedron]

Never in the annals of human communication have the posts of so many resulted in the edification of so few. I withdraw the question.

And THAT is nothing of an argument. It is mere petty snippiness, and a tantrum.