I keep reading posts about how you only need 6 holes...

[Ronnie]

To key or not to key that's the question thanks for the cartoon MT Guru funny name lol

[tin tin]

Olwell is one of the best flute makers so saying that people oooh and aaah over his keyed flutes only because they are attractive is the understatement of the century. If you have heard the sound of an Olwell you will know this. Or do I read this wrong?

I think you're missing my point. As you rightly point out, Olwell makes great flutes. A keyless Olwell and a keyed Olwell are both wonderful instruments (I've played both on a number of occasions). The keys make the flute more expensive and more chromatic, but they don't make it better. Yet for some reason (perhaps because they're rare, expensive, and attractive), people seem to suggest the keyed Olwell is 'better,' and there's more fuss about the keyed flutes, even though (aside from cost and chromatics), they're the same as the keyless flutes.

[Akiba]

In the context of this thread, the only possible reason for Lorenzo's comment is to disqualify Brian Finnegan as an example of a "serious" flute player who chooses to play keyless instruments.

What I'm saying is that, since (as Jon confirmed) Brian defines himself a whistle player, he translates his whistle music on the flute, rather than the other way around. The fact that his translation is excellent doesn't change a thing IMO. My English isn't perfect, but even if it was I wouldn't say "I'm English", I'd still be Italian. Though, I've heard many foreigners speaking English better than many that speak it as a first language. I'd never disqualify Brian's ability on the flute, and my opinion on his style has nothing to do with what I'm saying here. I mentioned Frankie Gavin for this reason, I LOVE his flute album, some of the best flute playing I've ever heard, but I still think of him as a fiddle player.
We all know that whistles are keyless, so it makes sense that also the flute Brian plays is keyless. This is why I thought he wasn't the example we were looking for, but there are many others, like Fintan Vallely, Seamus Tansey, John Skelton (I think), and many of the ones mentioned before (NOT Patsy Hanly! )
By the way, I'm done with this thread

Whether you put Brian Finnegan in the "Whistle Player" category or the "Flute Player category" is irrelevant. Question is if Brian Finnegan is a serious flute player? The answer is an unequivocal "YES". In fact, I'd say he is one of the great masters of the keyless Irish flute. He is unquestionably very serious about his flute playing and extremely accomplished. Does he use whistle techniques on the flute? Yes, but that does not negate his status as a serious flute player. I've seem him perform solo many times, hung out with him, taken a lesson from him. His flute playing is massive, technically amazing, very musical and moving. Can one use Finnegan as an example of a serious fluter playing a keyless flute? Come on--you can't seriously say no.

[Clover]

In the context of this thread, the only possible reason for Lorenzo's comment is to disqualify Brian Finnegan as an example of a "serious" flute player who chooses to play keyless instruments.

What I'm saying is that, since (as Jon confirmed) Brian defines himself a whistle player, he translates his whistle music on the flute, rather than the other way around. The fact that his translation is excellent doesn't change a thing IMO. My English isn't perfect, but even if it was I wouldn't say "I'm English", I'd still be Italian. Though, I've heard many foreigners speaking English better than many that speak it as a first language. I'd never disqualify Brian's ability on the flute, and my opinion on his style has nothing to do with what I'm saying here. I mentioned Frankie Gavin for this reason, I LOVE his flute album, some of the best flute playing I've ever heard, but I still think of him as a fiddle player.
We all know that whistles are keyless, so it makes sense that also the flute Brian plays is keyless. This is why I thought he wasn't the example we were looking for, but there are many others, like Fintan Vallely, Seamus Tansey, John Skelton (I think), and many of the ones mentioned before (NOT Patsy Hanly! )
By the way, I'm done with this thread

Whether you put Brian Finnegan in the "Whistle Player" category or the "Flute Player category" is irrelevant. Question is if Brian Finnegan is a serious flute player? The answer is an unequivocal "YES". In fact, I'd say he is one of the great masters of the keyless Irish flute. He is unquestionably very serious about his flute playing and extremely accomplished. Does he use whistle techniques on the flute? Yes, but that does not negate his status as a serious flute player. I've seem him perform solo many times, hung out with him, taken a lesson from him. His flute playing is massive, technically amazing, very musical and moving. Can one use Finnegan as an example of a serious fluter playing a keyless flute? Come on--you can't seriously say no.

I'd go on to say that Finnegan's incorporation of whistle techniques not only don't negate, but add something refreshing to the art of Irish flute.

[Akiba]

I'd go on to say that Finnegan's incorporation of whistle techniques not only don't negate, but add something refreshing to the art of Irish flute.

Agreed.

[I.D.10-t]

I can only see an issue when one also incorporates the same limitations. Range and dynamics comes to mind. For the pipes, I believe, some of the techniques were brought into the whistle and flute styles, but the pipes have things the flute can't do and the other way around. Import what can be gained, but don't lose anything in the process.

[psychodonald]

Clover, it seems as though it has been clearly established that many a "serious player" plays on a keyless flute(s). Further, it appears as though a keyed flute has no advantage over a non-keyed flute in terms of sound/ mass ("does the flute sound better w/keys?"). Now, to the third part of your original post, "If I decide to move up from my plastic Dixon to a wooden or Delrin whether a keyed flute would be worth the extra money?" Difficult to impossible to say since one does not know your financial situation nor your desire with regard to where you want to go musically with your flute experience (BTW, that changed along the way, for me, as I developed some ability). Some have pointed out the expense involved in "moving up" to a keyed flute, and rightly so. That having been said, I have to share an observation regarding my own keyed flute. Not long ago, I was asking virtually the same question as you articulate in the third portion of your post. The extra expense, while still an improtant consideration, wasn't an over riding concern for me, fortuanatly; I was lucky in that respect and recognize that may not be the same for others. I've come to realize, by hard and sad experience, and especially when it comes to musical instruments (and most things in life), one gets what they pay for. I wanted first and formost to be able to play, Irish Traditional music and that continues to be the case to this date. However, I have ventured into other music, music which would have been difficult w/o a keyed flute. For example I just finished playing a lovely tune, "Metsakukkia" (Flower of the Forest) and it is written in the key of Bb; for me, it would have been impossible to play this piece w/o a keyed flute. Like wise, I was playing "Stan Chapman's" which is in the key of A, and playing G#, for me, is so much easier and sounds so much better with a G# key. Bottom line, if you can afford it, why not add the keys?

[Clover]

Clover, it seems as though it has been clearly established that many a "serious player" plays on a keyless flute(s). Further, it appears as though a keyed flute has no advantage over a non-keyed flute in terms of sound/ mass ("does the flute sound better w/keys?"). Now, to the third part of your original post, "If I decide to move up from my plastic Dixon to a wooden or Delrin whether a keyed flute would be worth the extra money?" Difficult to impossible to say since one does not know your financial situation nor your desire with regard to where you want to go musically with your flute experience (BTW, that changed along the way, for me, as I developed some ability). Some have pointed out the expense involved in "moving up" to a keyed flute, and rightly so. That having been said, I have to share an observation regarding my own keyed flute. Not long ago, I was asking virtually the same question as you articulate in the third portion of your post. The extra expense, while still an improtant consideration, wasn't an over riding concern for me, fortuanatly; I was lucky in that respect and recognize that may not be the same for others. I've come to realize, by hard and sad experience, and especially when it comes to musical instruments (and most things in life), one gets what they pay for. I wanted first and formost to be able to play, Irish Traditional music and that continues to be the case to this date. However, I have ventured into other music, music which would have been difficult w/o a keyed flute. For example I just finished playing a lovely tune, "Metsakukkia" (Flower of the Forest) and it is written in the key of Bb; for me, it would have been impossible to play this piece w/o a keyed flute. Like wise, I was playing "Stan Chapman's" which is in the key of A, and playing G#, for me, is so much easier and sounds so much better with a G# key. Bottom line, if you can affortd it, why not add the keys?

Good argument for keys Donald. Your point is well taken. But I'm not convinced I can't be satisfied with keyless. The posts in this thread I think is a testament of what the bare barrel can achieve.

[psychodonald]

Clover: you have brought up a very good topic, thank you. There is so much to consider and I hope that your choice, in the end, will suit you well. Good luck. Isn't it nice that we can ask the questions and seek advice on this forum. My experience has been, with regard to this forum, that people are so helpful and genuine.

[Clover]

Clover: you have brought up a very good topic, thank you. There is so much to consider and I hope that your choice, in the end, will suit you well. Good luck. Isn't it nice that we can ask the questions and seek advice on this forum. My experience has been, with regard to this forum, that people are so helpful and genuine.

Yes, it's a great place for windbags who have volumes of hot air to blow through their choice of musical pipes .

Seriously it's fab, I agree .

[I.D.10-t]

One thing to keep in mind when shopping is that some makers can retro fit keys to their flutes (post mounts). Wait time for keyless seems to be less in most cases and resale for most flutes doesn't seem to be for a huge loss. Later you can find who you want to make a 8-keyed flute with Eb corps de recharge in what ever wood seems right.

[ubizmo]

Speaking as a non-serious flute player, I know two tunes that require (middle) Eb: "Crested Hens" and "Bachelor's Walk." I know one that requires Ab: Jimmy O' the Bu's. On the whistle or flute I can cross-finger the Ab with no problem. The Eb is another story. In Bachelor's Walk it's a quick note and I can generally hit it on low whistle, but not so much on the flute. But for Crested Hens it has to be spot on, and that's tricky.

Of course, I don't know a lot of tunes. I don't have a keyed flute, and no plans to get one, but I do love "Crested Hens." If I had to have one key, it would be that Eb.

[Feadoggie]

Speaking as a non-serious flute player, I know two tunes that require (middle) Eb: "Crested Hens" and "Bachelor's Walk." I know one that requires Ab: Jimmy O' the Bu's. On the whistle or flute I can cross-finger the Ab with no problem. The Eb is another story. In Bachelor's Walk it's a quick note and I can generally hit it on low whistle, but not so much on the flute. But for Crested Hens it has to be spot on, and that's tricky.

Of course, I don't know a lot of tunes. I don't have a keyed flute, and no plans to get one, but I do love "Crested Hens." If I had to have one key, it would be that Eb.

Speaking also as a non-serious flute player (in the context of this thread), I would agree that the Eb in "Crested Hens" is troublesome on many keyless flutes. But I've also thought that's why God gave us low D whistles with bigger holes to solve that problem. Lovely tune.

Wasn't the Eb key the first key widely used on flutes for just that reason?

Feadoggie

[Mr.Gumby]

However, I have ventured into other music, music which would have been difficult w/o a keyed flute. For example I just finished playing a lovely tune, "Metsakukkia" (Flower of the Forest) and it is written in the key of Bb; for me, it would have been impossible to play this piece w/o a keyed flute.

Good argument for keys Donald. Your point is well taken. But I'm not convinced I can't be satisfied with keyless. The posts in this thread I think is a testament of what the bare barrel can achieve.

Not sure this is a good argument at all. I picked up 'Metsakukkia' from Jackie Daly and we never played it in Bb. Key is a very relative thing and I don't think 'it was written in..' should be applied to many tunes.

I have a recording of Séamus Ennis explaining the scale of the pipes and all that and then announcing he is going to play (a version of) Bruach na Carraige Baine. As he starts the pipes he think out loud 'now where in the two octaves of my chanter will I play the tune'. After which he launches into it. That's the way it works, you play it where it fits best.

[LorenzoFlute]

That's the way it works, you play it where it fits best.

Not all instruments are the same though, if you're playing with fiddles it is likely that they'll start tunes in D minor, G minor or A major. Also, sometimes even if a tune is difficult to play on the flute because you need to use the keys, it will sound great once you get it, even better than if you decide to play it in an easier key. I can think of the G minor tune Splendid Isolation, it's actually a good tune for the flute once you get used to the keys.
And here's a very accomplished example of the use of keys, first tune is in D minor (and you have a nice cran ornamentation with the F natural key), second tune is originally in D major but transposed one tone lower to C major, which requires the use of the footjoint keys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRLIvKS1aoM