Myths and Logic of Shaolin Kung Fu

[TonyHiggins]

I just rented this film from Netflix. It's a documentary that shows the training programs these guys go through, some starting at 5yrs old. (Cured me of that fantasy.) It goes into the tradition behind what they're doing, but not much into their present motivation.

The thing is, they train to extreme and condition their bodies to extremes for the purpose of being fighting machines, but who do they fight? Hours every day torturing various body parts to make them tough and lethal. All dressed up and nowhere to go. Like, I want to know who sends their 5yr olds to a school like that, and why.

The program didn't get into my questions of why, but I figure it's about taking one's self to an extreme to become perfect at something. I wasn't sure if the journey or the destination was the priority. I can certainly relate it to playing music and striving for perfection, which I'd rather do than be a fighting machine.

The film also pointed out that they are Zen Buddhists, but didn't get into the concept of 'striving,' which I thought was counter to Buddhist philosophy.
Tony

[djm]

You have to remember that what you are getting is the Communist-government-sanitized version of Siao-lin wu-shu. re. 5 yr olds - It used to be a way for families to get rid of an extra son or two by dropping the kids off with the monks (plus a little donation to sweeten the pot).

You are correct that one cannot truley judge their abilities as a fighter unless they get into a fight, but the monks are not necessarily training to fight. What you have to consider is the mental conditioning required to get oneself through all those years of physical training. That in itself is a form of meditation. I don't know where you get the idea that one is not supposed to strive in Buddhism. Its not the striving, but the goal that is the concern.

Da Mo came from India and was appalled at the poor health of those who professed to be Buddhist monks in China. He instituted the training regimes of Indian wrestling (far older than any Chinese martial arts) as a means to bring them into a healthy body as well as train up their minds. The mind and body are not separate. The stronger and more flexible the body becomes, the stronger and more flexible the mind becomes. This was intended to form a basis to start sitting (Ch'an/Zen) meditation.

The Siao-Lin monks were supposed to have used their skills to right wrongs, fight evil governments, defend the poor, etc. - Robin Hood. If nothing else, the physical training is a means to attain extreme good physical condition, and that can be pretty wonderful thing in itself.

djm

[Wanderer]

My father put me in a kung fu class when I was six. He was a brown belt in Judo, and I always assumed he just wanted to share that joy..kind of like when fathers sign their kids up for T-ball.

I practiced practically daily until I was about 25. Then I got the whistle, and pretty much evenly split my training and whistle time. And then my son was born and that pretty much killed the kung fu I'm hoping in the next year or so, once he starts school, I'll find some free time again to start some practicing and stuff.

I can't really speak to the temple ideology, since obviously I wasn't given up to a temple

But I can speak as a long term and oftimes obsessive practitioner. And I mean obsessive. I once practiced one particular sword technique for 5 hours straight walking up and down the street (using a practice sword, of course). I got close to 10,000 reps in that day. My neighbors were used to me

What drove me then is much of what drives me now on the whistle: It was something I really enjoyed doing, and I wanted to be really good at it. From my perspective (and from many of the philosophies and sayings I've been exposed to), it's a journey of growth. There is no perfection, and no end to the journey, really.

I never really thought of myself as making myself into a more an more perfect killer, though to be sure, that's part of what it's all about. The long-term martial arts have warped my world view a bit, I'm quite certain. When someone walks up to me on the street, I instinctively decide how I'd take them down if I had to, and position myself in an advantageous manner in case of confrontation, for instance. When someone walks behind me, or is physically close to me, I'm hyper-aware of it, and I find myself seeking reassurance that they're out of my vulnerable spots (such as hearing their footsteps, etc). I don't want to over-dramaticize things..it's not like if someone walks up behind me, I jump up in a fighting stance and yell out Bruce Lee epithets. But I am quite aware of these things, and I guess they're things most people don't dwell on. I take it as an unintended consequence of spending most of my life focusing on self-defense.

It has stood me in good stead, the couple of times I've had to use my skills "on the street"...I spent plenty of time in bars when I was younger and in the navy, and if you spend enough time there, you're bound to run into trouble, and it's not always trouble you could run away from. But by and large, really, if you're training just to learn not to be a victim, a complete life of study is pretty much overkill. I trained becuse I enjoyed the heck out of doing it, took joy in my body's movements, and found the thoeries fascinating.

[Lambchop]

The Siao-Lin monks were supposed to have used their skills to right wrongs, fight evil governments, defend the poor, etc. - Robin Hood. If nothing else, the physical training is a means to attain extreme good physical condition, and that can be pretty wonderful thing in itself.

djm

Like what's-his-name in Kung Fu, I seem to recall.

[anniemcu]

I believe the idea is that they can *stop* anyone who is attacking them or another person. Only the amount of power called for to stop the person is used - no more than necessary, though some idiots would make that be till death.

To have the strength and ability when needed, and to use it with humility, is extremely powerful. Obviously, there is much more to it than the physical. I think the spiritual and ethical training must be very intense too.

[Eldarion]

Da Mo came from India and was appalled at the poor health of those who professed to be Buddhist monks in China. He instituted the training regimes of Indian wrestling (far older than any Chinese martial arts) as a means to bring them into a healthy body as well as train up their minds.

Actually what Da Mo aka Bodhidharma taught was not wrestling but a series of external exercises called Eighteen Lohan Hands and internal exercises called Yi Jin Jing (The Art of Sinew Metamorphosis) The former later evolved into martial arts movements ie. Lohan Quan and Yi Jin Jing became the backbone for Shaolin internal arts.

There are very little, if any true Shaolin exponents in Shaolin anymore as lot of masters immigrated to escape the communists. What you have however, are tons of Wushu schools surrounding Shaolin claiming to be of a certain lineage etc. Students usually have shaved heads and dress like Shaolin monks. These schools would be the ones that are accepting 5 year old kids who are trained mainly all day and night, but do not conform to Buddhist teachings etc like a monk would.

I've seen a documentary on these schools once and some of the parents said they send their kids there to build up healthier bodies. Others want a movie star future for their kid, looking to examples like Jet Li etc. Otherwise its none too shabby to be a sports champion in a communist country I think. I don't believe they are there to become fighting machines or anything, after all they are being taught Wushu.

An interesting thing to note that a lot of the martial arts you see in China nowadays are Wushu, they are not traditional kung fu ie. with powerful practical applications behind every move. The communist govt promoted wushu, the sport/"beautified"/ineffective art in favour of the real thing for a bunch of reasons. Wushu students usually do not learn the actual applications of the moves (which are in turn tweaked to look more "pretty") and spar with gloves and paddings like boxers who can use their legs. Not reflective of the kung fu at all.

[Henke]

The Shaolin have a way of life which I find more interesting and meaningful than most other ways of life. Isn't that enough explanation for why they live like they do and do what they do?
Martial Arts training has given me lots of joy, and I can easily understand how someone can devote himself and his entire life to it. The real Shaolin (yes they do excist, warrior munks, "real" Buddhist munks who spend a lot of their time practicing Kung Fu) live a spiritual life, devoted to obtaining spiritual goals. That's the most important thing, even if they are trained in martial arts to defend themselves, their monastery, people in need of defense, without thinking about their own interests (unlike most others who claim to help and defend people in need and only do so for their own personal gain). These days, there is not much need, nor any use to defend their way of life with Kung Fu, but there is a whole bunch of other reasons to keep doing it. One of them is tradition, the other one has to do with the spiritual goals. It's a glorious way of life.

There is a guy here in Sweden, Andreas Beskow, who became the first (might still be the only?) non Chinese to be accepted as a Shaolin munk (a real Shaolin munk). He was trained in some of the most traditional, and secret Shaolin arts, like Xin Ji Bah (sp?) by his Shaolin masters when he was there as a munk. I've had some conversations with him on a few occations and I was truely intrigued by his stories.

[Tyler]

I think I've seen the flick in question, if I'm remembering correctly...
I never got into kung fu or any of the recognized Chinese martial arts, but I was very heavily into Iaido and Kendo, though more as a sport to train my body (Kendo) and as a discipline for the mind (Iaido). I haven't kept it up much since my daughter was born.
I've been informally teaching a friend of mine in Kendo, and for lack of a better place we practice outside....
a few weeks ago, one of the neighborhood kids came up and asked us if we were Jedi and if he could be one too I love kids. If I had the time to become more advanced I might even consider teaching Kendo, due to the large interest locally, and a great lack of teachers.

[djm]

Eldarion, you are using the term "kung fu" as if it were a separate form of martial arts. "Wu shu" means martial arts. "Kung fu" means great achievement. You can have a kung fu in poetry, philosophy (Kung Fu Tse = Confucious), piping, whistling, etc. It means mastery in a chosen field of endevour.

There are many forms that supposedly originated from Siao Lin school. No-one knows for sure. There are nine different locations in China that all claim to be the original Siao Lin Ji. Kinda gives you the idea of how long ago this stuff was in its heyday, and how much myth and folklore surrounds it. One thing that characterizes Siao Linn stuff is that it is a very hard, external style of martial arts, versus the softer, inner styles like tai qi, ba gua chang, or lok hup bath fatt. All schools include a philosophy of self-defense, but there is no question that it can also be used to attack, as well.

Whether one ever uses it in a practical situation doesn't matter. It is the training and perfecting of the movements that counts. As others have mentioned here, it can be an all-consuming passion.

djm

[Tyler]

Eldarion, you are using the term "kung fu" as if it were a separate form of martial arts. "Wu shu" means martial arts. "Kung fu" means great achievement. You can have a kung fu in poetry, philosophy (Kung Fu Tse = Confucious), piping, whistling, etc. It means mastery in a chosen field of endevour.

djm

I did not know that! ( like I said, wasn't much ever into the chinese arts). This thread has been very informative; thanks djm!

[Wanderer]

Eldarion, you are using the term "kung fu" as if it were a separate form of martial arts. "Wu shu" means martial arts. "Kung fu" means great achievement. You can have a kung fu in poetry, philosophy (Kung Fu Tse = Confucious), piping, whistling, etc. It means mastery in a chosen field of endevour.

I'm guilty of the same thing. Over the years, I've learned a few things about the martial arts in conversation.

The unitiated uses the word "karate" to pretty much mean all martial arts...ie: "You teach that karate class, right?". They'll know that "kung fu" is also a kind of martial art. I used to feel it was my duty correct these people, but now I don't bother. I figure if they really cared that much, they'd already know the differences.

To someone with a little knowledge, "karate" is a general term for japanese-origin, hard-style martial arts, and "kung fu" is a general term for chinese-origin soft-style martial arts.

As you get into learning about differing styles (assuming you do), you learn that all of those stereotypes are totally wrong, and that there are plenty of japanese styles that teach soft movements, and chinese styles that teach hard movements, and that there are literally hundreds of different martial arts beyond the "mainstream" ones like American Karate. In China, for instance, in addition to the Shaolin, Wah Lum, and other recognizable names, there are hundreds of lesser known or barely document family style arts. Most cultures have several kinds of indiginous martial arts practice, from Vietnam (such as Truong Vo Thuat), India (Pencak Silat), France (Savate), and the Philippines (Escrima, Arnis). On the whole of it, it's really hard to paint with any kind of broad brush, and really be accurate.

So now, when someone says "that's right, you know that karate, huh?" I just go "yeah, a little"

[Eldarion]

Eldarion, you are using the term "kung fu" as if it were a separate form of martial arts. "Wu shu" means martial arts. "Kung fu" means great achievement. You can have a kung fu in poetry, philosophy (Kung Fu Tse = Confucious), piping, whistling, etc. It means mastery in a chosen field of endevour.

Yes, it was a deliberate choice. And yes I do speak Mandarin and literally speaking wu shu means martial arts, kung fu means skill or achievement. However around Mandarin speaking Chinese martial arts circles "wushu" is usually used in a context denoting the sport of doing display form sets, fixed set sparing, and other things associated with modern day wushu competitions. If you go to a wushu school, it is very unlikely that you will learn effective self defence but "hua quan xiu tui" (visually pleasing but ineffective forms) It does help with flexibility agility and stuff like that though, like learning gymnastics would.

While I understand that over in the States the term "Kung fu" is very loosely used to describe any ol form of oriental martial arts, (and hence the literal meaning of "Wushu" is often utilised by teachers to denote the Chinese version of it) people who are aware of the distinctions use "kung fu" to refer to traditional manifestations of Chinese martial arts. These are the traditional sets that do not have their practical applications bred out of them, the traditional fighting systems in their complete form - including stuff like zhan zhuang to build qi, knowledge about jing lu, associated qin na, and other things depending on what system you are learning. Kung fu has real sparring with application of the moves (not with boxing gloves and that relatively unsophisticated kicking/punching you find in competitive wushu san da) A teacher who teaches real kung fu will have different priorities compared to a wushu instructor and there is a world of a difference.

I try not to use "traditional wushu" to describe this because wushu competitions do have "traditional form" segments and this might futher muddy the waters.

[djm]

Sorry, Eld, I misinterpreted your meaning. I have never heard "kung fu" used in the manner you describe, was actually corrected by Chinese for doing so, but then again, I have never been involved in the competition aspect.

djm

[Tyler]

djmYou seem to know a good deal about this subject (I had no clue you were into this stuff before now, the things one learns, eh?)
did your interest in researching the chinese martial arts come from taking a martial art and researching after, or did you start learning a martial art after research and study?

[djm]

I heard about Zen Buddhism through investigating references in song lyrics. I heard of Chinese internal martial arts through investigating Zen Buddhism. I studied tai ji, ba gua, and liu he bah fa from the Taoist Tai Chi Society under Master Moy Lin Shin from 1983 to 1995 or there abouts. I got to the point where, in order to get any farther, I had to make a decision - to do tai ji to live, or live to do tai ji (i.e. 24/7). It was too much for me and I backed out of it. I just do chi gung exercises now for maintenance, but I am much more interested in ITM than in going further with tai ji. That's just a personal decision, not intended as a reflection on anyone else or on the teaching or on the field of martial arts or anything else.

This stuff is truely all-encompassing if you want it to be. It even goes so far as to how to sleep (in other words physical and mental training is non-stop). I have seen people do incredible physical stuff, and the teachers smiling, saying that what the person accomplished was fine, but there is still more learn. Its there for anyone who wants it.

That's something that is kind of remarkable about many of the martial arts. At one time, only people in certain elite groups received the training (be it monks in a temple, an imperial guard, a secret family style, etc.) so that very few people actually had access to the learning. Now it is available to anyone, but look how few of us can actually fit it into a modern lifestyle, or can find the gumption to carry through to any kind of level of mastery!

djm