Tenor Banjo: Plectrum Thickness

[dirtyheel]

Another banjo player and I have been having a medium vs heavy pick debate. I'm wondering if anyone has any insight or firm recommendations about how thick your pick should be.

He argues that the thinner (.60) picks allow him to clearly pick triplets, and the thicker picks stifle his triplets. I feel that the thinner picks destroy my attack and make my playing sloppy, especially when I'm playing fast and the pick warms up.

I know that we'll always have our personal preference, but given perfect technique, should we migrate towards harder or more medium picks? I feel that with a good loose wrist and good loose pick I'll be able to most clearly articulate notes and ornaments with a harder pick.

What do you think? Is there a clear answer?

cheers
Kevin

[rh]

from http://www.gerryoconnor.com/tech.html

<b>Plectrums</b>

What can I say about the most personal item of every stringed instrument player. When I was learning how to play the banjo in my teens, I quickly realised just how important this little item is. After all it's the only contact you have with the banjo to actually make the sound happen. It's vital, that's all I'll say in this regard. It matters what type of material the plectrum is manufactured out of, and what shape it is. I don't use tortoise shell picks because they crack under the relatively high tension of the tunings used in both Irish tenor tunings and my jazz tenor tunings. Also because our music is so fast you want plectrums to almost bend under the movement. If the pick is too light it's hard to play with conviction and you might end up cutting the sides of your fingers on the strings, because you are pushing in too hard on the pick to achieve a good loud tone.

A lot of American mandolin players use very strong hard picks but the mandolin is very highly strung and a lot more taut than our banjo tunings. They tend to glide the picks over the strings, almost a rubbing movement. I use grey picks from Jim Dunlop with a nylon base and a .60 gauge. So does Barney McKenna of the Dubliners. I use a .73 gauge for Jigs because I probably use less improvisation and I look for more sustain because of this. If you have a strong muscular wrist you can get different gauges to suit your grip but the main thing is not to use a plectrum that will shatter. Some players use plectrums that are pointed, like a triangular tip. I always thought these gave a very thin sharp tone to the banjo. It's a personal matter of taste and comfort. If your plectrum is bent after you have been playing for a time you are gripping it too tightly. Take a loose grip and don't be afraid of it falling out of your hand, believe me, it's happened to the best of us.

FWIW i use a Clayton .63 white triangle on banjo and a .80 on mandolin (for Iroid playing anyway). My banjo is a 17-fret so maybe a little floppy on the strings anyway -- a .80 feels too heavy to me. I'm no Gerry O'Connor though, nowhere close.

[alurker]

I think pick selection is very dependant upon your right hand action. Gerry O Connor appears to use a lot of thumb action rather than wrist action in his playing and uses a jazz tuning so the set-up is completely different. Because he uses thumb action he has more control over the location of the tip of his plectrum during triplets than someone using more of a wrist action.

I find that the plectrums Gerry uses are slower to spring back into position than the more resiliant types like the dunlop tortex. I find that because of the looser wrist action I use I need this plectrum resiliance to give me more control on the position of the plectrum tip. I use a fairly high tension set of strings (0.011, 0.015, 0.027W, 0.038W) and find that what works best for me is a 0.5mm resiliant (or 'springy') plastic (these are often red in colour to match the Dunlop Tortex range colours). The action I prefer is one where the plectrum bends over the strings and produces a crisp sound rather than the string bending around a more solid plectrum. Most players banjo I know go for either the .6 or .73mm nylon base (grey) dunlops or for the .5mm or .6mm (orange coloured) dunlop tortex type. My advice is to try all these and others and see which one gives you the attack and the triplet control that you need.

[olebanjo]

Gerry O' Connor uses mainly wrist action. Also, he can play the GDAE banjo as well but just uses CGDA because it is brighter. No need to guess that i use 60mm Jim Dunlop nylon picks then

[alurker]

Gerry O' Connor uses mainly wrist action.

With more thumb action than most.....

No need to guess that i use 60mm Jim Dunlop nylon picks then .

It's a bit like trying to get a Manchester United supporter to acknowledge that Liverpool are actually a better team. Dirtyheel, in answer to your question: No, there is no clear answer. It's a debate without resolution....

[Mult-I-Task-er]

Its funny, I believe John Doyle uses the jim dunlop .60 as well for guitar,, I gravitated to that same pick without knowing anyone else is using them for both guitar *dadgad* and banjo. So I vote .60 gray Dunlop nylon for every stringed instrument in irish music *cept fiddle of course DUHH*

P.S. For bluegrass and swing music on standard guitar and mandolin I use a pretty heavy gauge turtle since that music has a lot of free improve solo's and one does want to be heard over the 5 string right?

Sincerely, Jack

[Thomaston]

I think I need to try out a medium. I've got a light that I used to strum guitar. It made the banjo too tinny sounding. A mando-playing friend gave me a Dawg pick that's just too thick. It seems to give a dark, muffled sound. My ideal sound would be somewhere in between.

[BoneQuint]

I think I need to try out a medium. I've got a light that I used to strum guitar. It made the banjo too tinny sounding. A mando-playing friend gave me a Dawg pick that's just too thick. It seems to give a dark, muffled sound. My ideal sound would be somewhere in between.

Gwah, do I hate light picks with guitar. You hear as much plastic-scrapey sound as you do music. Drives me nuts. I haven't noticed that as much with banjo, either because they're more percussive, or because people tend to use heavier picks.

[buddhu]

I use Dunlop Tortex picks on all string instruments: mandolin, tenor banjo and those rare occasions when I pick up a guitar these days...

Yellow .73 or green .88 for ITM and folk mandolin

Purple 1.14 for bluegrass mandolin

Orange .60 or yellow .73 for tenor banjo

Yellow .73 or green .88 for guitar

I definitely find triplets harder with heavy picks.

[Mult-I-Task-er]

A mando-playing friend gave me a Dawg pick that's just too thick. It seems to give a dark, muffled sound.

Yea, Grisman used an almost completely round pick, I believe it was turtle. He got that great jazzy deep dark tone with it on mandolin, but I never could get used to a pick with no tip point at all, not enough attack.

Jack A.

[Mult-I-Task-er]

I definitely find triplets harder with heavy picks.

I agree with that for banjo, guitar, and bouzouki, but for some strange reason I use a heavy *around 1. something mm* turtle pick on mandolin and have no trouble with triplets on that.. *shrug* go figure...


Jack A.

[Mult-I-Task-er]

Gwah, do I hate light picks with guitar. You hear as much plastic-scrapey sound as you do music. Drives me nuts.

You can get a thick none scrapey sound from a thin pick on guitar if you use your finger tip with the pick when you play. The thin picks tip is your attack and you muffle that tinty sound with the tip of your finger for an over all good tone. I did wind up with this strange extra callus on the tip of my right hand index figure though, and that fingernail never has to be cut.

[buddhu]

I definitely find triplets harder with heavy picks.

I agree with that for banjo, guitar, and bouzouki, but for some strange reason I use a heavy *around 1. something mm* turtle pick on mandolin and have no trouble with triplets on that.. *shrug* go figure...


Jack A.

Actually, you're right. I *can* get away with triplets using 1mm and heavier on mando, although I still prefer the lighter option.

I guess it's a string tension thing. Mando tension is so much higher - and GDAE tenor banjo is at the other extreme. Mando players tend towards heavy picks and TB players towards thin. Seems like there's a link there.

[Jayhawk]

The tenor banjo player at our session uses tubes of PVC and I believe, CPVC, that he fits over his index finger. Talk about hard and inflexible...and his triplets sound like cannon shots (meant to be a compliment - they're good and highly percussive).

Now I'll prove myself to be a flute player who just dabbles in TB - I use the cheapie pick that's in a glass bowl at the local music shop. The only thing written on it is "Toon Shop". When I pluck the strings with it, it plays the right note so that's good enough for me...

Eric

[Uilleann915]

Just a guitar player here, but I use either Fender mediums, or Dunlop .88. I agree about the light picks....hate them for a guitar, but not sure for banjos, etc.