Aluminum vs Brass

fel bautista · Post by **fel bautista** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:20 pm

I have some Burke whistles, a small bore D and a Bb, all in brass. I was thinking of getting a B and C soon, but wonder about the aluminum version. Is it mellow ( less bright) or???

Coffee · Post by **Coffee** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:31 pm

I don't think the tone would really change much based on which metal is used, but different metals have different conductive and other metallurgical properties. Brass is heavier, for one thing, and due to the cupric content may conduct heat more efficiently, which may mean that it would become, how do you say, un-warmed up? more quickly. But then, I'd think it would warm up more quickly too.

This is coming from someone very new to the world of whistles, so take with a large helping of salt.

straycat82 · Post by **straycat82** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:40 pm

I own a DAN and regularly play with someone who has the same whistle in brass and there is a distinctive difference in tone (some of which could be attributed to the players I'm sure but I do believe the material comes into play as well). Her brass is much warmer sounding to my bright aluminum. I can't speak for the "warming up" qualities of her whistle but I've never heard her whistle clog when I was around. I have a lot of clog issues with my DAN, especially in well air-conditioned rooms. I have to hold the headjoint in the palm of my hand or stick it under my leg whenever I put it down for a moment. Aluminum dissipates heat pretty quickly so it does not stay warmed up very long when I'm not blowing into it.

dfernandez77 · Post by **dfernandez77** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:59 pm

straycat82 wrote:I own a DAN and regularly play with someone who has the same whistle in brass and there is a distinctive difference in tone (some of which could be attributed to the players I'm sure but I do believe the material comes into play as well). Her brass is much warmer sounding to my bright aluminum.

Owned a DAN still own the Brass whistle. I'll agree with "Her brass is much warmer sounding to my bright aluminum."

Since Burkes are so consistent, I can't think of anything other than the material difference for the change in voice.

I prefer the brass.

Coffee · Post by **Coffee** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:12 pm

I think it may be an effect of wall thickness and mass/density. Aluminium is a very light metal whereas brass is, er, not.

straycat82 · Post by **straycat82** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:16 pm

Cofaidh wrote:I think it may be an effect of wall thickness and mass/density. Aluminium is a very light metal whereas brass is, er, not.

... as was stated before, different materials (I.E. the different properties of those materials) can alter the sound produced from the whistle.

Also, just for clarity:
Above I stated that I have had some issues with my Burke DAN clogging. That is mainly due to over air-conditioned buildings here in the Arizona summer heat. I didn't want to move people away from Burkes with a misconception that they clog a lot. It's usually just because, in my case, the atmosphere is cooler than normal. As I mentioned above though, warming up your whistle will significantly help (with any whistle) to reduce condensation buildup and result in less clogging. Also, the soap treatment (which I apply regularly to my Burke and Syn whistles) helps as well. I'd check with the maker of your whistle before you do that though. I know for fact that Michael Burke okays this for his instruments.

Cheers,
Johnny

P.S. I believe I've also heard it said a time or two that the easiest way to prevent clogging is to hide the wooden shoes

Bretton · Post by **Bretton** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:35 pm

I've tried various versions of Burke whistles and always liked the brass (or composite) better than the aluminum versions.

-Brett

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:57 pm

I tried a brass and aluminium Burke D last week. The brass looked and felt better to me, and of course it sounded a little better, too. I have to assume that bias affected my hearing, but I'm ordering the brass anyway.

I'm not a big fan of light whistles. I'm at the point now that my Mellow-Dog wants to jump out of my hands. Maybe that means I should play it more.

Anyways, I loved the sound of both Burke D's.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:20 pm

I have an aluminum Burke AlPro D.

I recently had a chance to spend a couple of happy weeks with a Burke brass session bore D (the descendant of the AlPro).

The whistles appear almost identical--the brass was a blacktip, mine isn't, but both have an all-delrin windway. Otherwise, just about identical.

The aluminum is brighter, slightly softer, and the high A and B are still very sweet and easy to control.

The brass will take a bit harder play, has a bit more resistance, and is darker and stronger and almost reedy in the first octave. The second octave is well balanced and has a tight focus, the high A and B are still forgiving and easy to hit--it's a Burke, after all

--but are not quite as sweet as on the aluminum.

One other difference is that the brass has a wonderfully strong bell note (low D). The low D on the AlPro is good but not as strong.

Jen, who owns that brass Burke, had my Burke brass narrow bore D for the same time; she loved it and is now on the market for one.

I was happy when it came back home--I was missing that whistle! It has the best of both worlds, the buttery sweet high octave of the AlPro along with a stronger first octave and a stronger bell note like the brass session D.

--James

fel bautista · Post by **fel bautista** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:34 pm

A side note to the clogging issue- I had my fipple too far inward; when I brought it back out so the A was actually A@440. the clogging stopped and it played fine. Don't ask me why it was so far in to begin with; I'm surly and proud of it. I think I was trying to tune to a fiddle and blew it...<literally...

Gunslinger · Post by **Gunslinger** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:35 am

Terve, everybody!

I think you got it all wrong.

The pipe material has no effect on the sound whatsoever, be it copper, nickel, brass, aluminium (, even plutonium for the glow-in-the-dark oriented). The possible sound differences come from different thicknesses of the wall and different hole profiles. Even wood and plastic can sound almost the same (because the sound is formed by resonating air and that air _alone_) if the fipple construction is similar and wall thicknesses match.

The air resonating does not have energy enough to cause the piping to resonate enough to have effect on the sound. The sound is defined by the fipple construction and the hole configuration alone. There is no metallic or wooden or plastic sound: on different materials different fipple constructions and wall thicknesses are preferred and _that_ is what makes them sound different.

Of course materials with higher heat conductivity (=metals in general) take some warming up time and that has some effect on pitch and may cause clogging but otherwise the material does not matter at all.

BR,
Heikki Petäjistö

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:13 pm

Gunslinger wrote:Terve, everybody!

I think you got it all wrong.

The pipe material has no effect on the sound whatsoever, be it copper, nickel, brass, aluminium (, even plutonium for the glow-in-the-dark oriented). The possible sound differences come from different thicknesses of the wall and different hole profiles. Even wood and plastic can sound almost the same (because the sound is formed by resonating air and that air _alone_) if the fipple construction is similar and wall thicknesses match.

The air resonating does not have energy enough to cause the piping to resonate enough to have effect on the sound. The sound is defined by the fipple construction and the hole configuration alone. There is no metallic or wooden or plastic sound: on different materials different fipple constructions and wall thicknesses are preferred and _that_ is what makes them sound different.

Of course materials with higher heat conductivity (=metals in general) take some warming up time and that has some effect on pitch and may cause clogging but otherwise the material does not matter at all.

BR,
Heikki Petäjistö

Your arguments are all valid, but you do not account for porosity, bore finish, and damping. We're talking fine points, here, but these are fine instruments.

Edit: My argument is kinda moot. Many of the people who build, tune, tweak, and voice these instruments are under the impression that material has an effect. If the builder believes that brass will sound darker than nickel when he's tweaking the sound, and I believe that brass will sound darker than nickel when I play, then the brass will sound darker.

Gunslinger · Post by **Gunslinger** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:43 pm

Many of the people who build, tune, tweak, and voice these instruments are under the impression that material has an effect. If the builder believes that brass will sound darker than nickel when he's tweaking the sound, and I believe that brass will sound darker than nickel when I play, then the brass will sound darker.

That does not necessarily mean that many people are right. The piping is neutral: it does not resonate just to be democratic

Here we have the placebo effect again. All the impressions regarding sound quality are biased by personal preferences and there's nothing we can do about that. The materials do feel different and I most certainly agree, that we need different whistles for different moods and different tasks. Horses for courses, as they say.

Anyway, brass and nickel have so similar physical properties, that if the pipe-work is similar, there is just no way one could sound darker than the other. But then again, I don't know the power of the dark side!

BR, Heikki Petäjistö