Individual Style

[crookedtune]

[
If you'd like to hear what I'm talking about, our local NPR station has a great Sunday night Bluegrass show. Check it out at http://www.wfpk.org/programs/bluegrass.html

I agree with all of that Cathy. And while I don't usually frequent "bluegrass" festivals, I have been to several of the oldtime/bluegrass fiddle conventions, such as Mt. Airy and Clifftop, so I know what you mean about the diversity of the forms. (And I'm a huge fan of Flatt & Scruggs, the Stanley Bros., Country Gentlemen, et al).

Traditional bluegrass and modern/progressive bluegrass can be as different as, say, New Orleans Dixieland and Kenny G's whatever-it-is music. Hard to put into words, but your heart and mind know the difference. My original contention was that flute and fife can do interesting things with those repertoires, and that they're fun to tackle. I really wasn't trying to imply that they can be worked into those traditions, or sound at home in a bluegrass band.

BTW, good luck with that!!!

[Cathy Wilde]

... I'm of the opinion that traditional Bluegrass is indeed at least somewhat representative of that larger folk tradition you mention.

Well, bluegrass is a type of music that can trace its lineage back to one man, Bill Monroe. As such, it doesn't fit the definition of a traditional music in the sense that an ethnomusicologist would use the term. (And no, I'm not an ethnomusicologist myself, but I know enough of them that I can be reasonably sure I'm right in saying that.) And "folk music" is one of those amorphous terms that can mean whatever the user wants it to mean. (If anyone here was on the IRTRAD-L mailing list a decade or so ago, you no doubt recall the blowhard from Baltimore and his nonsensical rants about "music of the folk".) So "traditional bluegrass" seems to me to have about as much meaning as "Classic Coke". But then I'm not a bluegrass player.

However, I did use to listen to quite a bit of bluegrass music, about 15 years ago when one of our local NPR stations programmed it close to 24/7. Never once in all that time did I ever think "Gee, what this music really needs is some flute..." (Nor did I think "needs more cowbell", but come to think of it now, maybe it does. But I digress....) So Cathy, as to flute in bluegrass, I just have to say WHY?!?!? But as they say, whatever floats your boat.

But seriously, though, I would question your desire to pursue both ITM and bluegrass simultaneously, given the assumption that you don't consider yourself as being anywhere near a master of either. That's a recipe for disaster. Even the best musicians are wary of switching from one genre into another. True crossover artists (as opposed to jacks-of-all-trades-and-masters-of-none, aka session buzzkills in multiple award categories) are so rare as to be almost non-existent. (I can't think of one, but I'm sure someone here will, which is why I said 'almost'.) I do know of Irish musicians at the top of their game, in full-time touring and recording bands, who are closet bluegrass afficionados. Likewise, top Appalachian players like Bruce Molsky will do crossover gigs with the likes of Mick Moloney. But in all cases, they're very clear as to which is their music, and which is the music they're just dabbling in. Their music is the one they are grounded in. If you're dabbling in more than one music but grounded in none, then where are you?

So Cathy, you can of course disregard my advice, but if I was you I'd drop either the Irish music or the bluegrass. As a player, of course - you can still listen to and love whatever music you want. Or if you absolutely can't bear to quit playing bluegrass but want to play Irish flute, then take up another instrument for the bluegrass, like fiddle or banjo or guitar. Or be the bluegrass band's roadie or sound person. Then some day years from now when you find that you're truly grounded in Irish flute playing, then maybe you could get away with dabbling in bluegrass on the flute.

And for what it's worth, I'd give the same advice to a "learning" (i.e. not fully grounded) Irish player who also wanted to play classical, or rock, or jazz, or any other kind of music. If you want to play ITM, then play it, don't dilute it. And don't dilute the other music either.

And now back to your regularly-scheduled non-rant programming...

All good thoughts, John, and thanks. But my real point isn't that I'm trying to play Bluegrass on the flute; it's that we're trying to find a way to blend the two styles and instrumentation. Now, this does involve approaching certain Bluegrass tunes with a flute (tho more often a whistle) -- which I'll be the very first to admit is odd and scary, and which is also why I don't play all the tunes all the time; same as our Bluegrass guys back off a bit on the Irish side. And you're right, it doesn't always work -- but sometimes it kind of does, and then it's kind of cool (at least to us and a few listeners here and there -- though I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't your cup of tea, and that's OK too. )

But it's an interesting process; it really does force us to be a little creative, which was my point in terms of this style discussion. We really have to get inside whatever it is we're playing and try to see if there's something we have to say about it.

Now, whether what we're doing will ever spawn a genre of its own like successful hybrids (including Bluegrass) that have come before? !, I doubt it! But at this point I don't think it's going to hurt the planet or anything, and the journey's interesting.

Finally, I'll agree that Bluegrass in its purely formal and I suppose absolutist sense (at least in terms of the name) came from Bill Monroe and his band (the Blue Grass Boys); but I think you have to agree that it, as with most things, is a confluence of influences -- old- timey, mountain music, string-band, and 'traditional' country that, combined with Monroe's virtuosity and instrumentation, became a signature.

But shoot, listen to John Harrod and others' collections and you can hear the forerunners of it all over the place. And hey, back in the day, the mandolin was a sort of portable violin (I'm also a bit of a fan of mandolin orchestras. You want to talk bizarre ....); it was orginally a classical instrument.

So like most stuff Bluegrass is a hybrid, if you will. And that's what we're fooling around with. It's an interesting challenge, and hey, ya never know; someone might get something out of it.

And besides, it's not like I'm ever going to be known as a brilliant Irish traditional player ! But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy playing the music and working on it to the best of my ability .... and style. As long as I don't bill myself as pure drop, I don't see the harm in it.

[Cathy Wilde]

Traditional bluegrass and modern/progressive bluegrass can be as different as, say, New Orleans Dixieland and Kenny G's whatever-it-is music. Hard to put into words, but your heart and mind know the difference.

Amen to that!

My original contention was that flute and fife can do interesting things with those repertoires, and that they're fun to tackle. I really wasn't trying to imply that they can be worked into those traditions, or sound at home in a bluegrass band.

BTW, good luck with that!!!

Hey, I need it! But it's an adventure, and kind of mind-expanding. And no worries; of all people I certainly wouldn't read you as implying they could be. After all, I'm the one who's out here publicly humiliating herself half-*** trying to do it!

And FWIW, I would love to hear any thoughts you have on such "interesting things" to be done with the repertoire. It's pretty unexplored territory (at least in a formal recorded sense) from what I can tell, so I'm sure curious.

[johnkerr]

....That's a recipe for disaster. Even the best musicians are wary of switching from one genre into another. True crossover artists (as opposed to jacks-of-all-trades-and-masters-of-none, aka session buzzkills in multiple award categories) are so rare as to be almost non-existent...

Do you feel the same about playing different instruments in the same style?

I guess I'd have to say no, because I'm actually trying to do that myself. (If I was a politician, I could figure out a way to answer yes despite what I do in my own personal life, but alas I'm not...) But part of what I said is really true, though, even when trying to learn a second instrument in the same genre. You need to be very accomplished in the first instrument before taking up the second one. When I'd only been playing the flute for about five years, I picked up an old student fiddle cheap and tried to learn it. I even went to a series of group classes in Irish trad fiddle. What I learned from that couple of months is that I really needed to become a better flute player, so I dropped the fiddle. But after six more years of playing just flute, I think I did get better - to the point where I felt comfortable taking up the concertina. That was four years ago. I still have room for improvement in my flute playing, and definitely in my concertina playing. But I have found ways in which already being able to play ITM on one instrument informs and enhances the learning process on the other. And D minor tunes come a lot easier on 'tina than they do on flute, even with keys...

[Jennie]

Cathy, I'm in a bit of the same situation regarding the folks I find to play music. I have only one friend who is dedicated to Irish traditional music, and he plays concertina a hundred miles up the road (it only goes in one direction). If we want to join other musicians, which we do, then we have to adapt to what their music is, and vice versa.

In our case, this means switching from Irish tunes to bluegrass. I usually put away the flute and whistle and play my hammered dulcimer if I've had time to tune it, or just sing on the vocals.

I don't feel this hurts my music. Okay, it isn't advancing it much, but I know the difference between Irish traditional music and the style we all play together. Bluegrass doesn't interfere with my Irish "ear" any more than speaking Spanish does for my English. They're different languages. I suppose if it were taking time away from my playing Irish style, it could be argued that I was losing something. But part of the tradition is that music takes place within a community. The tradition of playing with friends may, of necessity or choice, take priority over our individual style preferences.

Jennie

[Cathy Wilde]

Cathy, I'm in a bit of the same situation regarding the folks I find to play music. I have only one friend who is dedicated to Irish traditional music, and he plays concertina a hundred miles up the road (it only goes in one direction). If we want to join other musicians, which we do, then we have to adapt to what their music is, and vice versa.

In our case, this means switching from Irish tunes to bluegrass. I usually put away the flute and whistle and play my hammered dulcimer if I've had time to tune it, or just sing on the vocals.

I don't feel this hurts my music. Okay, it isn't advancing it much, but I know the difference between Irish traditional music and the style we all play together. Bluegrass doesn't interfere with my Irish "ear" any more than speaking Spanish does for my English. They're different languages. I suppose if it were taking time away from my playing Irish style, it could be argued that I was losing something. But part of the tradition is that music takes place within a community. The tradition of playing with friends may, of necessity or choice, take priority over our individual style preferences.

Jennie

What she said. As always, better than I ever could.

[jim stone]

I come at this from a somewhat different perspective.
I've been at it nearly coming on to four years, I work
very hard at ITM, but the longer I play and the harder
I work, the more obvious it becomes what it will take
to be good at it. Given my age, the fact that I'm entirely
isolated ITM-wise, the absence of teachers and so on,
I expect that, by the time I'm good at ITM I will have been dead a decade.

Also while I love ITM, it isn't for me entirely a passion--music
is more of a passion. One reason I concentrate on ITM
is that it improves my flute playing better than anything
else I can play. It's the spine of the repertoire for the
Irish flute, the technique of playing is enmeshed in
this music and these great musicians. But I care a good
deal about music in general.

Finally my own musical gifts and strengths do not lend themselves
best to playing jigs and reels but to harmony and improvisation.
This is another reason I work hard at ITM--I work on what I'm
less good at.

So becoming accomplished at ITM probably isn't going to happen,
and anyhow there's nobody to play it with here. So, when I'm
not putting in my two or more hours a day practicing, I play
what's here to play--blues, country, rock n' roll, klezmer,
what ITM goes by, blue grass, whatever. I grew up with some
of this music, I played blues guitar for a long, long time.
Some of the people I play with are good amateurs but none
of us is going to amount to much. They're really glad I'm
there. They think the flute is wonderful. I'm pretty good at
crafting flute and whistle to all sorts of stuff. It would be foolish not
to do this--I wouldn't play with anybody at all and, you know,
we do have our moments. I don't have time to be a purist;
time's winged chariot and all that. Play what I can
while the sun still shines. It isn't as though I'm missing
my chance to be good at ITM.

When I first played for an accomplished Irish flautist, she
said I play flute beautifully. I think that's about it, not very
well, not anything like real ITM, not very fast, but beautifully.
That was several years ago. Now I play more beautifully,
and I am able to express, as I have wanted to do ever since
I was a child, some of the music singing in my head. The flute beats
the guitar for that, it's lyrical, there's only one note at a time.

Next life I'm planning to be reborn in Ireland. Peter Laban
is setting it up with the Higher Powers, I believe. Meanwhile
it's me, the flute, ITM as a means of learning to play,
and the divinity: music. T'will serve.

[jim stone]

Some memories:

A long time ago, walking out of a train station in India,
I came upon two lower-caste boys, about 12 years old,
sitting cross-legged on the pavement. One of them was strumming a
zither that lay on the concrete before him, the other was drumming
on a large tin can. They were singing in Hindi, quite loud, a
religious chant.

It was beautiful beyond description. A thrill of recognition ran
through me and I thought: 'This is the most beautiful
music I will ever hear in my life.'

For a long while I hitchhiked around India, sleeping on
the streets. I had a metal whistle I found, I think it was in the key
of G, and often when I came upon people singing
chants at shrines (the streets of India are full of music),
I would play with them, hours spent blissfully playing
music with folks with whom I could hardly speak.

It seems to me I learned something there, which I often
forget and need to recall. Music is prayer.

[chas]

by the time I'm good at ITM I will have been dead a decade.

By the time Mozart was my age he'd been dead for 10 years.

[Aanvil]

by the time I'm good at ITM I will have been dead a decade.

By the time Mozart was my age he'd been dead for 10 years.

Boy if that ain't a straight set-up... but I'm going to let it pass.



I say your get yourself a jaunty hat and some funky shades so that meanwhile at least people might say "Hey... I have no idea what is being played but man'o'man... cool hat and shades!".

[C age ing]

[quote="johnkerr"] And no, American old-time, bluegrass, jazz, country, etc, are not "styles" of Irish music, they are separate genres of music that have their own cultures and styles of playing.

Just two words Wynton Marsalis.
He is well respected in the classical and jazz fields and is a superb teacher, as anyone who has glimpsed his televised children series, would agree. As he is an acknowledged master of two genres, why shouldn't us lesser mortals strive for a similar achievement?
As for the myth that Bill Monroe invented Bluegrass? Bill Monroe simply named his band Bluegrass Boys, guys like Snuffy Jenkins developed three finger style picking based on older styles that eventually blossomed into Scruggs style and is still undergoing growth.
Music, whatever form should not be quarantined unless you wish to live in the past, so go for it girl. Mind you I must admit to being biased. On this side of the pond we have an excellent museum, Horniman's, in effect the music part of the British Museum. Back in the late 60s early 70s they had an American musicologist, born and bought up in Appalachia, who had not heard Western classical music until she arrived at university. She told me not to play Old Time music as it wasn't my culture. Such a blinkered view, wonder where she is and what she believes now?

[Flutered]

And we thought Jim, that you only
played Yankee Doodle or whatever
it's called!!

[johnkerr]

Just two words Wynton Marsalis.
He is well respected in the classical and jazz fields and is a superb teacher, as anyone who has glimpsed his televised children series, would agree. As he is an acknowledged master of two genres, why shouldn't us lesser mortals strive for a similar achievement?
As for the myth that Bill Monroe invented Bluegrass? Bill Monroe simply named his band Bluegrass Boys, guys like Snuffy Jenkins developed three finger style picking based on older styles that eventually blossomed into Scruggs style and is still undergoing growth.
Music, whatever form should not be quarantined unless you wish to live in the past, so go for it girl. Mind you I must admit to being biased. On this side of the pond we have an excellent museum, Horniman's, in effect the music part of the British Museum. Back in the late 60s early 70s they had an American musicologist, born and bought up in Appalachia, who had not heard Western classical music until she arrived at university. She told me not to play Old Time music as it wasn't my culture. Such a blinkered view, wonder where she is and what she believes now?

Just for the record, I don't believe and did not say that no one should play more than one kind of music, nor did I say that anyone should not play music outside of their own culture. What I said was that before anyone attempts to move from one kind of music (e.g. bluegrass) into another (e.g. Irish), or vice versa, they should be thoroughly grounded in the first music, the one they are seeking to branch out from. Granted, Mr. Marsalis is a genius in both classical and jazz music, but he did start as a young child and was born into a very musical family. Most of us here on C&F do not appear to have either one of those advantages, so I'll stick by what I said.

Also, I never said that Bill Monroe invented bluegrass. I said that all music labeled "bluegrass" can be traced back to him, which it can. Of course Bill Monroe himself had many influences and incorporated them into his art, as all true artists do. But obviously whatever it was that he did was exceptional enough that his name got associated with that style of music, surely at the expense of others who may have made just as big of a contribution. But that is the essence of the point I was getting at, which is that in a true traditional music, you don't have any one person that you can trace the lineage of the music back to. For instance, who can you trace the beginnings of Irish traditional music back to?

[Cathy Wilde]

Jim, I so agree. Music is prayer, and we're all praying in our own ways. Isn't it cool?

Uh-oh. Does that make this a religious forum? Quick! Duck! Here comes the Modern-Tater!

[jim stone]

What I said was that before anyone attempts to move from one kind of music (e.g. bluegrass) into another (e.g. Irish), or vice versa, they should be thoroughly grounded in the first music, the one they are seeking to branch out from.

Wondering if I can sort this out. I read you as saying this:
if you wish to master a genre, ITM, for instance, then it's prudent
not to try to simultaneously master a different genre, e.g. blues
or jazz. This is because you may well not master either. Get one
down and then expand to another.

Now I don't know if this
is true but it hardly sounds silly, and the fact that you testify
to it counts for something in my view. Perhaps people who
have gone about this differently will have something to say.

Suppose you're right. It is consistent with this (I don't mean
to imply that you would deny the following) that one occasionally play
other music than ITM. What is imprudent is trying to master
other sorts of music, to substantially divide one's attention,
while trying to master ITM. But playing in the occasional
jam session of country or rock n' roll or old timey or whatever
isnt' doing that. It's consistent with spending almost all one's
energy on ITM.

Also there will be people who do not have the goal of mastering
ITM or any other genre of music. This for various reasons,
e.g. the goal is unrealistic in their case, or they care more
about playing the music that moves them and that arrives
in many genres, or they wish to play with the people in their
neighborhood and those arent' playing much ITM,
or all of the above. One can play well in several genres,
learn a lot about music in general, contribute in various
venues, have a good time, and that may be what one
wants. One may care about that more than becoming first-rate
at anything. This is, of course, consistent with working hard
and primarily at ITM.

Whatever one thinks of these goals,
they are hardly irrational. People are musicians for many
reasons. The truth of what you've said
will of course not much affect those who have other concerns,
which hardly detracts from its importance.