Cloggy 2 Burke whistles. Warning: Controversy

dwinterfield · Post by **dwinterfield** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:29 pm

I'm having a similar issue with my D alum wide bore. It's almost 3 yrs old and is my everyday whistle. About three or four months ago it started playing poorly. I've always played poorly so it wasn't that. There was no visible clog. After trying the usual remedies, I would leave it in a solution of dilute dish soap over night. It works for while. It also discolors the the aluminum a bit. Now I just let it soak in water overnight every 2 weeks or so (maybe 12-16 hrs playing time). I soak it as soon as it starts to go funky.

My playing is getting better and it's still my favorite whistle, but it's now a finicky favorite.

I thought about starting a thread asking if it is possible for a whistle to wear out from use but didn't because I could not explaing to mysef how this could be.

Thanks Weeks for having the courage to step forward. I too have a wayward Burke.

If this is the first step to recovery, are there 11 more? Is recovery possible?

Mike's always been very responsive although I haven't raised this with him. I think it's got to be some sort of additional or substration or reaction on the surface of the delrin or the aluminum.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:39 pm

Isn't great for all yer WHOA guys? You buy a very expensive whistle and after seven years and a day it self-destructs so you can buy a new one.

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:47 pm

Peter Laban wrote:Isn't great for all yer WHOA guys? You buy a very expensive whistle and after seven years and a day it self-destructs so you can buy a new one.

I just knew you'd chime in, but to yer credit as per request, you didn't mention Gens.

Thanks, I think!

And remember, these are not very expensive by the wooden standards.You want expensive? Why, I'll show you ex..... oh, never mind.

PS. Thanks, Wint (and Lisa et al). I have tried not to play the blame game about it regarding Mike. Maybe, like any newer product, it takes a lot of use on a broad spectrum for things to show up....And, if this is happening with metal and delrin, what about wood? I only have one seldom-played Sweet, so I would be extra upset if this went on with a real hoity-toity wooden whistle.. At a higher price, tho, I suppose I would be more expectant of the builder to rectify it.

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:56 pm

Hi Weeks et al,

This may be nothing, but I recal being advised that acetal plastic (Delrin) is a truly remarkable substance - it is totally resistant to all the usual culprits that attack plastics (acids, alkalines, oils, corrosives etc) which makes it an ideal industrial substance.

However, it IS slightly water-absorbent. I am not able to find if this relates to solubility in any way, except that the chemical properties of acetyl are "changed" by water.

http://plastics.dupont.com/plastics/pdf ... DELDGe.pdf

Anyways, it might not be advisable to leave delrin parts wet in storage. I.E. shake-out or swab the thang before putting it away.

rh · Post by rh » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:01 pm

Mitch wrote:Anyways, it might not be advisable to leave delrin parts wet in storage. I.E. shake-out or swab the thang before putting it away.

and no keeping them in rainbarrels or soaking them in Guinness before you play.

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:27 pm

rh wrote:
Mitch wrote:Anyways, it might not be advisable to leave delrin parts wet in storage. I.E. shake-out or swab the thang before putting it away.
and no keeping them in rainbarrels or soaking them in Guinness before you play.

And no putting them in your mouth and blowing small amounts of sali.......waitaminit....did he say that water changes their properties?....then what are they doing being used as mouthpieces?....yikes.

Okay, new theory. Putting my whistle back in its black plastic pouch that Mike provides while its still "moist" might be the culprit. I mighta wrecked it for good. Especially since I live in the mostly damp Bay Area....

I am glad I started this thread. I am learning stuff...

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:54 pm

The Weekenders wrote:
rh wrote:
Mitch wrote:Anyways, it might not be advisable to leave delrin parts wet in storage. I.E. shake-out or swab the thang before putting it away.
and no keeping them in rainbarrels or soaking them in Guinness before you play.
And no putting them in your mouth and blowing small amounts of sali.......waitaminit....did he say that water changes their properties?....then what are they doing being used as mouthpieces?....yikes.

Okay, new theory. Putting my whistle back in its black plastic pouch that Mike provides while its still "moist" might be the culprit. I mighta wrecked it for good. Especially since I live in the mostly damp Bay Area....

I am glad I started this thread. I am learning stuff...

Hmmm - I wouldn't go that far just yet - the water absorbtion is 0.25% in 24 hours. That's not a lot, and it doesn't proove anything about clogging. I'm only speculating in hopes someone with chemical engineering skills can add some definitive understanding. Any Chemical engo's out there?

Like I said - it may be nothing.

Perhaps I should ask Dupont?

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:18 pm

OK, I asked Du Pont.

I think I'll change my family coat of arms to the Goat-Rampant-and-Windmill

OTOH, it would be a great shame if it prooves that Delrin has problems - it machines just like hardwood and sounds similar to African Blackwood - better in my opinion. Metals corrode, woods can crack and move, plastics have other challenges - there are strategies to acomodate all that. Nothing lasts forever - it's all a relative thing and I find it somehow comforting to have a relationship with my instrument beyond just picking-it up and playing.

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:51 pm

Interesting, nay intriguing Watson. I've been playing my Burke black tip brass (extended delrin head) for about two years now every day and had only one problem - right after I decided to finally clean it even though it was playing just fine. I ran it under hot water and let it dry and it sounded different and crappy; then I used Adrian's remedy - I put it away in a drawer for a few days, and lo and behold it reverted to its initial wonderful form. Really. I don't know that these things either require or want cleaning other than to clear the windway if required with an index card piece or something, carefully.

But Peter's right, never had this problem with my Gens; oh sorry, he didn't mention Gens this time.

Philo

Dr Funkenstein · Post by **Dr Funkenstein** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:53 pm

Out of curiousity, did Mike replace the o-rings in the tuning slide when you sent it back? The way you're describing the tone as "fuzzy" and unpredictable reminds me of leakage issues on a flute, which would either result from a crack or a leak of some sort. I wonder if after a few years of playing and tuning, there's a leak at the slide due to a torn o-ring? Or maybe the tuning slide or socket is out of round? That could explain the late development and also why treating the windway doesn't stop the clogging.

--Jeff

The Weekenders wrote: No matter what I do, within a minute of playing either, they clog up, but no amount of cleaning, tapping or whatever gets them to stop being fuzzy, and unpredictable especially on what would be the high B on a D whistle. This is the normal weak spot on so many whistles, but never was on these two until they developed their "issue." FWIW, I played the Eb a LOT because it was so much more agile than the D.

And yes, folks, I sent the C back to Mike. He says he cleaned it and that it was a great whistle. But it's not a great whistle, it came back exactly as I sent it, only cleaner. Individual notes can sound okay, but trying to make it thru a reel or jig results in this balky behavior that gets in the way.

harpmaker · Post by **harpmaker** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:57 pm

I've used delrin for several years for a varity of things and never really had problems with it. Yes, it will absord a small amount of moisture, but it releases it just as quickly.

One thing about it is that under compression it doesn't really wear so much as gets harder. This is why a lot of people use it for nuts and bridges on stringed instruments.

Normal body fluids shouldn't have any effect on the surface though.

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:20 pm

Dr Funkenstein wrote:Out of curiousity, did Mike replace the o-rings in the tuning slide when you sent it back? The way you're describing the tone as "fuzzy" and unpredictable reminds me of leakage issues on a flute, which would either result from a crack or a leak of some sort. I wonder if after a few years of playing and tuning, there's a leak at the slide due to a torn o-ring? Or maybe the tuning slide or socket is out of round? That could explain the late development and also why treating the windway doesn't stop the clogging.

--Jeff

I don't know about the o-ring. To be honest with you, I don't know how to tell if the o-ring is worn out and further, how I would get in there to replace it without scratching up the side walls if I did.

The thing about o-rings to me has always been, how can I wear out something I virtually never use? I mean, I have pulled the head out since this problem occurred a few times, but on the Eb, much less than my D whistles for example (as the Eb is the newest whistle I own). I have always wondered what the o-ring really does beyond keeping the joint tight for moving back and forth. I didn't know that it would really affect the sound quality. Maybe that's the problem? Hmmmm.....

dwinterfield · Post by **dwinterfield** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:22 pm

I'm wondering about spit and aluminum rather than delrin. Could they combine to create a coating or tarnish of some sort in the headpiece that would effect the tone but be water soluablewhen soaked?

azw · Post by **azw** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:23 pm

Mitch wrote:... the water absorbtion is 0.25% in 24 hours. That's not a lot, and it doesn't proove anything about clogging.

I wonder if the problem would go away if the whistles were rotated, so that each one had a chance to dry out thoroughly between uses? Of course, the results would depend on how wet they get and how you store them.

Hmm. This hypothesis of water absorption doesn't explain why the problem took years to appear, does it?

Post by **Dale** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:31 pm

From time-to-time, I've heard from people who describe a gradual deterioration in the playability of whistles of various makes, but not in a way that's allowed me to detect any pattern. I've got a number of Burkes from this era, but haven't had the problem.

In fairness to Mike, we need to avoid letting this be a post-your-complaint-here thread. If you've had similar experiences, fair enough to post...but please also post if you haven't. Normally, anybody who HAS had a problem is likely to post in this kind of thread and people who HAVEN'T are more likely just to move on without comment.

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