An intonation question

[mandoboy]

I am trying to improve my intonation. I am trying to use flutini to record while I play a tune and then look at it after I am done to see how well (or poorly) I have done.

My question is how close is close enough? How many cents sharp or flat will blend in and not be noticed?

Does anyone have any good suggestions on how to practice when working on intonation?

Thanks for any help.

JeffG

[benhall.1]

I think your question - and particularly the way you've put it - is very relevant, Mandoboy. (By which I mean relevant to becoming a better player.)

To me, it seems sensible that you can't improve intonation on an instrument like a fiddle or a flute by using something like flutini. I think that stuff is interesting as an exercise, but not really what's required to improve intonation. (I'm only going to talk about trad here, but it applies to other genres as well.)

To improve intonation, there is, IMO, no substitute for listening and understanding. I'm coming from a background of playing trad where the object was not to play in ET (fiddle players and flute players don't do that anyway - or at least they didn't used to when I first learnt trad), or in some classical sort of "expressive intonation" or other system. The object was to play in tune with other players, playing trad tunes in the way that those particular tunes were played. And for that, the only solution is to listen and learn.

So, my practical suggestion is to try to play along with someone whose playing - and, for this purpose, whose intonation - is something which you admire. Gotta be in real life, not CD, if it's to be really worthwhile.

[Denny]

yeah, real life! They can't scowl at ya if they're recorded.....

[benhall.1]

yeah, real life! They can't scowl at ya if they're recorded.....

That was pretty much what I was thinking, Denny. More succinctly put, of course ...

[Denny]

if ya can't hear it ya need visuals

[greenbaumflute]

The "listen" approach is definitely the one to subscribe to. There have been studies done where everyone checks their notes in a chord with machines and, lo and behold, it doesn't sound "right." If, however, you are having trouble hearing correct pitch, as in relationships of one note to another, it's okay to also include a few assumptions about certain notes. If your embouchure doesn't correct for high notes to be low enough in pitch, especially when you are playing at a pushed level, then assume you need to bring the pitch down. Embouchure needs to frown and you will want to blow down rather than across the flute. If there are pitches in the middle with the same issue of going sharp, assume you also need to blow much more in a downward rather than across angle. Most pitch issues come about because of angle combined with an embouchure that is both a bit smiling or too stretched across. You'll find that pitch improves greatly with these two corrections. And you just sometimes have to assume you're doing these "right" things and you'll find that your pitch ends up matching others better - um, if they're also playing well in tune Your biggest friend is that you are at least wondering if your pitch is good! Go from there!
(But electronically, not the best way to go...)
Adrianne
www.klezmerflute.com

[mandoboy]

Thanks Adrianne.

That is the kind of stuff I need. I am finding the second octave to be a bit sharp. And I started working on the blowing more into the flute when I get there and also trying to back off on the air speed a bit.

I am using flutini more to see if I am in the ball park or not. Not so much as a practice aid.

I do feel like I am kind of tone deaf and really can't hear if I am off unless I am really off. I am not sure if that can be learned or not, but I am going to try.

Jeff

[Denny]

you'll be fine when you realize that the 2nd octave is easier than the first


well, you'll have different issues....

[jim stone]

Thanks Adrianne.

That is the kind of stuff I need. I am finding the second octave to be a bit sharp. And I started working on the blowing more into the flute when I get there and also trying to back off on the air speed a bit.

I am using flutini more to see if I am in the ball park or not. Not so much as a practice aid.

I do feel like I am kind of tone deaf and really can't hear if I am off unless I am really off. I am not sure if that can be learned or not, but I am going to try.

Jeff

Trick with the second octave is to play it more softly than the first octave. To address the notes
with some care. Resist the temptation to 'soar.' Makes for a more beautiful and
in tune octave.

[david_h]

My question is how close is close enough? How many cents sharp or flat will blend in and not be noticed?

That bothered me too. I ran some solo recordings of my favourite players through flutini. Did not help much. So I used Tartini. Turns out that its complicated and the devil is in the detail.

So I quit worrying and and started doing what these guys are suggesting. Interesting exercise though.

[pflipp]

Here are some limits of interest:

- The smallest audible difference is reported to be 5 cents. That is: even if you play two notes together, you cannot tell if they are 4 cents off.
- Equal temperament is off with just intonation by as much as 16 cents on some notes, and it still fills Carnegie Hall.
- The variation of a plucked or hammered string may be even more than 16 cents, starting lower and ending higher than the intended note.
- The Lazy Man's Limit would be at 50 cents -- when it is officially unknown what tone you're trying to play

By the way, thanks for introducing me to a few cool pieces of software I hadn't heard about.

[chas]

A good way to train both ear and lip is to practice with a drone. Have a tone generated (I use tuner_e), and play the same note, then a third, then a fifth, an octave, and play around with the note till you don't hear any beats. Once you're consistently nailing the notes from the get-go, you might try playing along with solo recordings. (I like Kevin Burke in Concert for that -- great playing, easily heard, and not exactly a speed demon.)

[I.D.10-t]

So who usually sets the intonation of a group? The pipes? Box players? The bodhrán player? what if there isn't a fixed pitch instrument?

[pflipp]

What I know from orchestras is that the oboe will usually supply the pitch note. This is normally because it has such a constant, pure and penetrating tone, but in our orchestra it simply was because it was the instrument with the most peculiar pitch

And I think that's often the key. Tune to the bloke who can't help much about his own tuning, and otherwise to the bloke who has the most audible tone. Or the guy who is chief

[johnkerr]

So who usually sets the intonation of a group? The pipes? Box players? The bodhrán player? what if there isn't a fixed pitch instrument?

You always tune to the instrument that has the least tuning flexibility itself. So if you're playing with an accordion or concertina, tune to them. (If you're playing with more than one box, pray that they're in tune with each other, or just resign yourself to a wet session.) If there's a piper present but no box player, tune to the pipes. If there are no boxes or pipes, let the various stringed instruments sort out what their tuning will be for the night, and then tune to them. The only circumstance in which you should ever tune to a flute is if there are nothing but flutes present. But then be prepared to spend the entire evening constantly retuning, in mid-tune if necessary.

I assume you were joking about tuning to the bodhran. But if there's a bodhran player present who cares about tuning his/her drum (the good ones do), they tune last.