boehm / simple system ?

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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by Gordon »

C'mon, David, umm, Julia - you know you want to play a silver flute... :poke:

It is about the sound, both in ornamentation and honk. For ITM, the wooden flute sits perfectly, or perhaps the other way 'round. On the other hand, the silver flute (including wooden versions of same) work better, IMO, for many, or most, other styles of music.

Which flute we relate to best, though, is clearly a matter of taste, both in what music we most often play and what feels better in our hands when doing so. Clearly, on this forum, the wooden SS, non-baroque, flute is the more organic, the most discussed, and the most desirable. And then we argue about what type, Rudall or Pratten, modern, antique or hybrid.

I.D.10-t is right - they really are different instruments, no better or worse than the other, just different, for different purposes. Good stuff can happen, though, when good players mix and match them - I was playing an O'Carollan on my guitar, full distortion, the other day... I thought it sounded great; not sure it would have won over a pub crowd. I should have used a wah pedal, though... Maybe that would have helped...
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by Cubitt »

Okay, Jem - I'll bite. As you are one of the more knowledgeable and prolific members here, I have to ask about your spelling of Theobald Boehm's name. What's up with that, sir?
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by Denny »

depends on how ya translate German... Theobald Böhm

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... bald_Boehm
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by kkrell »

Darn, Denny beat me to it. "The name is Böhm, Theobald Böhm". Jem just doesn't have an umlaut to spare.

http://www.flutepage.de/englisch/flutists/boehm.shtml
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by Denny »

I'm good with the hard questions of today.... :tomato:
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by jemtheflute »

The guys have the right of it - I can't be bothered pasting in umlauted o-s all the time (any suggestions for one or two tap coding???).... but I prefer to approximate the correct German spelling Böhm more closely whilst acknowledging the even-contemporary-to-him and ongoing "correct" usage of the Boehm spelling in English and French.

Also, when I met the lovely Adrianne Greenbaum earlier this year she told me that a common and exceedingly weird American pronunciation (among presumably well educated and cultured professional classical fluters, to my incredulity and consternation!) derived from the oe spelling is "Bame" or something close to that. That seems to me both ridiculous and unseemly (not to mention mind bogglingly wrong-headed, obtuse and perverse as an interpretation of the letters, even by someone with zero linguistic awareness!) and not to be in any way encouraged (by inaction) to continue or spread! She was using that pronunciation as her received norm and habit (fair enough - and she's not linguistically ignorant) and I simply didn't recognise what term she was using initially - took a couple of uses before I worked it out contextually, it sounded so ear-gallingly odd! Then, of course, I had to ask!

I have also heard other inept, tongue-mangling attempts to pronounce the name from how it is written by folk who don't know what dipthongs are nor how they should be interpreted in speech..... let alone have any idea about German orthography and pronunciation or the ways those are conventionally represented in other languages' orthography. I try to avoid causing such misapprehensions. If I had an easy and convenient umlaut on my keyboard, I'd use it consistently. Spelling the name "Bohm" without the umlaut may lead to it getting pronounced "Bome", which is poor, but closer to correct than "Bo-em" or "Beam" or "Boym" etc., let alone "Bame"!!!!!
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by Cubitt »

jemtheflute wrote: If I had an easy and convenient umlaut on my keyboard, I'd use it consistently. Spelling the name "Bohm" without the umlaut may lead to it getting pronounced "Bome", which is poor, but closer to correct than "Bo-em" or "Beam" or "Boym" etc., let alone "Bame"!!!!!
Fair enough, but now I struggle, yet: What is the correct pronunciation if none of the above qualify? I know my dipthongs from my dipwads, so I pronounce it something akin to "boh-ume." Whatchal think?
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by Denny »

Brits, after slaggin' the way we speak English they start on on our German....

Why would you think it should be any better?

Dis har da meltin' pot.... we screw all of 'em up! :D
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by jemtheflute »

As usual, we've been here before. I'm surprised Denny didn't beat me to this:
Sound sample of correct pronunciation from helpful German Chiffer Sonja/skh: http://www.box.net/shared/bp0xoeslu7 from this old thread - in which you took part Cubitt! Mind, I see that the "Bame" pronunciation was mentioned in it too and I'd utterly forgotten about it when I met Adrianne - clearly my incredulity was that strong!
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!

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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by Denny »

I was off to bring in the horses when I hit Submit and found out he'd asked....

It's just dark o'clock here :D
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by Cubitt »

jemtheflute wrote:As usual, we've been here before. I'm surprised Denny didn't beat me to this:
Sound sample of correct pronunciation from helpful German Chiffer Sonja/skh: http://www.box.net/shared/bp0xoeslu7 from this old thread - in which you took part Cubitt! Mind, I see that the "Bame" pronunciation was mentioned in it too and I'd utterly forgotten about it when I met Adrianne - clearly my incredulity was that strong!
Jem, you are one of my absolute favorites, but I have to set the record straight on two points:

1. My contribution to the thread you mention was to add a linguistic joke, and pretty far into the thread at that. I did not come away from it any the wiser.

2. My copy of THE FLUTE AND FLUTE PLAYING lists the author as Theobald Boehm. There is an autographed picture inside where the author signs himself "Theobald Boehm." This is why I asked the original question. I will concede, however, that within the same volume, I found he also signed himself with your spelling, so I guess the ultimate answer is that both are correct, even according to the man whose name it is.
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by I.D.10-t »

This might be of interest.
Quick comparison of four flute types
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by themadhatter »

Re keyboard short-cuts:

Some time ago I installed the UK Ireland Extended keyboard layout using the instructions here - http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/mear ... indows.htm - and as a bonus acquired short-cuts for other diacritical marks including umluats - ö can now be obtained from ¬ followed by o. Böhm and even BÖHM. Wonderful!

The website also describes several alternative layouts for those in the US etc and there are links to keyboards for Macs.
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by bramble »

So I'm interested in the WHY of your instrument, as I said before.
I know what I play and why .. but what do you play, and why?
Why does the wooden SS flute make better ITM (or STM) in your opinion than the silver Booooooeeeehhhhhmmmm (or whatever)?
Personally, I play a nickel (silver plated) boehm and find it gives me a better sound for trad than silver boehms do ... more edgy.
Why do we associate that reedy honk sound with ITM? who started that and what makes it work? (is it that it merges with the fiddles better? or what?). Is it just what we're used to or is there some harmonic reason?
Is there no harmonic reason, maybe it's about the fingers?
I mean, yeah, you could play ITM on sax, if you were so inclined (the fingering would be easier than boehm F sharps for a start, and as for reedy ... but not woody) ... are we slaves to tradition, does it sounds 'better' what do we mean by 'better' are we responding to our perceived notion of tone?
Just interested, give me your reasons dudes.
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Re: boehm / simple system ?

Post by I.D.10-t »

If you want why, the fingering system is the same as the fife (that low D is difficult).
Trivial, but true in my case. Many fife tunes cross over to ITM for historic reasons.
Should have gone for baroque.
bramble wrote:... are we slaves to tradition, does it sounds 'better' what do we mean by 'better' are we responding to our perceived notion of tone?
I's not reenactment, it's tradition.
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